FPS limits on LMG rifles

[Erock 3]

I might frustrate or even piss some people off with this topic but it needs to be addressed. Why, by the rules for AMS can a rifleman shoot 400fps semi only, DMR 450fps semi only (incapable of full) and then there is LMG 450fps and full auto. Why not make LMGs restricted to 400fps and get rid of the minimum engagement distance? You wouldn't NEED a sidearm for close engagements.

 

On a similar note, if someone is fielding a GBBR or SMG why not allow full auto? If they want to hump around 10 mags and only carry 300 rounds total with the weight factor that is their choice. Typically I run a KWA KMP9 at my local CQB field and carry upwards of 7 mags total, thats a decent amount of weight. If someone wanted to use that at a AMS event my hat is off to them and why not let them shoot full auto to have some benefit?

 

Just my two cents, not that it means anything!

[DHamby 0]

I might frustrate or even piss some people off with this topic but it needs to be addressed. Why, by the rules for AMS can a rifleman shoot 400fps semi only, DMR 450fps semi only (incapable of full) and then there is LMG 450fps and full auto. Why not make LMGs restricted to 400fps and get rid of the minimum engagement distance? You wouldn't NEED a sidearm for close engagements.

 

On a similar note, if someone is fielding a GBBR or SMG why not allow full auto? If they want to hump around 10 mags and only carry 300 rounds total with the weight factor that is their choice. Typically I run a KWA KMP9 at my local CQB field and carry upwards of 7 mags total, thats a decent amount of weight. If someone wanted to use that at a AMS event my hat is off to them and why not let them shoot full auto to have some benefit?

 

Just my two cents, not that it means anything!

 

I personally don't understand how the rifleman works. Is it semi-only at a FPS limit, or indoors, or the whole time? And yeah, why would an SMG like UMP, MP5 or MP7 fire only semi, the whole point of an SMG is that it's a subMACHINEGUN.

[Ron Mexico 380]

Rifleman is semi auto at all times no matter what.

MP5's get used a lot on the field as a primary weapon for a rifleman so no need to make them full auto.

SMG's poll the admin and make the suggestion that they allow smg's to be full auto.

 

LMG's:

The idea behind going semi auto was to give the LMG gunner an actual role other than just being another guy on the field shooting in full auto. I don't know why but at one time or it might still be this way but all milsim event organizers had the same rule of 450 fps for a lmg if that is why it is still on the books. It's an odd rule I know lol but you guys seem to be the first to ever challenge it.

[Dave 781]

Remember one of the most basic tenants of airsoft guns: they only really differ in form, not function (ya, GBBR functions differently than AEGs and so on... not important).  Therefore, tactics that typically apply to real life (AR vs SMG) don't necessarily apply.  

 

The semiauto rule was created to make airsoft slightly more realistic, with a big nod to safety (particularly in UO).  Getting hit with 20 BBs by a SMG shooting 30RPS at 350FPS sucks far more than getting hit once with one BB travelling at 300FPS.

 

Does that make sense?

[DHamby 0]

Remember one of the most basic tenants of airsoft guns: they only really differ in form, not function (ya, GBBR functions differently than AEGs and so on... not important).  Therefore, tactics that typically apply to real life (AR vs SMG) don't necessarily apply.  

 

The semiauto rule was created to make airsoft slightly more realistic, with a big nod to safety (particularly in UO).  Getting hit with 20 BBs by a SMG shooting 30RPS at 350FPS sucks far more than getting hit once with one BB travelling at 300FPS.

 

Does that make sense?

 

Yup. But you'd think your finger would get tired.

 

Anyway, it's not like I don't get enough full-auto action at my CQB place, so no biggy.

[Guest Specs]

Ron hit a lot of points. 

 

I would agree that 400 FPS would probably be a good idea for SAW platforms and might solve the issues of muzzle in or out of windows on first floors. Definitely not a bad area for discussion and (IMHO) gives a little more importance to the DMR role. 

 

As for semi-only, that's a bigger topic of discussion and one that's still a little fresh considering it's only about a year in the making. The key here is gameplay and event pacing. Consider the following:

 

1. Semi-only makes platform of choice a more even playing field. This means that those with budgets and those without won't see a significant jump in RoF and thus puts more emphasis on skill and accuracy. Keep in mind that many soldiers in real combat situations don't use their full auto abilities for the sake of ammo conservation. That mag of 100 bb's lasts a good deal longer than a standard mag of ammunition would when laying on the trigger.

 

2. It makes movement a bit easier and puts an emphasis on where people are going. On certain fields, particularly MOUT facilities where engagement distance is small, it can be very difficult for anyone to move through certain corridors or anywhere for that matter when the average rifleman is capable of spraying and suppressing at the level of a SAW. This scenario slows down gameplay, decreases the average player lifespan, and keeps people in that aggravating corner pileup that can't move situation.

 

3. It puts importance on other roles. SAW obviously gets a bonus for their full auto capability, but it also puts the DMR role in a special light as well. Many standard AEG rifles can reach out about as far as a DMR platform can. (50 FPS honestly isn't as much an advantage to distance as you'd think.) But without the ability to spray a stream, it makes it a good deal harder for your average rifleman to reach out to DMR distances. 

[Dave 781]

Ideally (this is somewhat contrary to what I posted earlier), the AEG SSWs match their real counterparts by increased range/capacity.  I think that is why they have an increased FPS.  Some explanation would be nice.

 

Good topic.

[T-REX 242]

I have always thought that allowing the fps of a support weapon to be 450fps allows it to have a further engagement distance while still keeping, hopefully, the same effective range. I do not like being sprayed 20 times up close. I do not care if it is semi, i love 0 MED but full auto 0MED is a different issue. I think of it this way. They do not want you going full auto that close so thy push your MED back. As a result, in theory you are losing 60ft of range on your enemy, while they do also loose that range on you as well as you are further away but that is besides the point. As a way to make up for the lost range, they give you the ability to use 50fps more on your weapon. Now, FPS does not always equal range but it can help get your bb there quicker so it drops later than sooner due to speed. Just my reasoning for the rule

[T-REX 242]

And once you start getting up there in fps, your range will increase

[Erock 3]

I definitely agree and understand all of Specs points as to roll restrictions.

 

The reason I brought this up in the first place is that I just recently built a lightweight a&k m249 with a polarstar engine. The first time fielding it I left it very civil shooting 385fps and around 25rof. I was extremely impressed with my range, accuracy and consistency. If I would have added 65fps and .43 BBs I feel the benefits would be unfair, IMHO.

[T-REX 242]

Nothing is unfair if it follows the outlined rules. Anybody can build that same gun. it is not unfair. I run gas. is it unfair that I only carry 240 rounds when someone wearing the same exact loadout with mid caps could have over 700rds? no

[Dave 781]

I definitely agree and understand all of Specs points as to roll restrictions.

 

The reason I brought this up in the first place is that I just recently built a lightweight a&k m249 with a polarstar engine. The first time fielding it I left it very civil shooting 385fps and around 25rof. I was extremely impressed with my range, accuracy and consistency. If I would have added 65fps and .43 BBs I feel the benefits would be unfair, IMHO.

 

Different rules for p*:

 

SQUAD SUPPORT WEAPONS

A squad support weapon is classified as an M249, M60, MG36, RPK, PKM, MG42 or any "Squad Automatic Weapon" either currently or formerly adopted as a military weapon. (M27 / IAR are NOT ALLOWED to be fielded as a SSW at this time.)

A. Squad Support Weapons (SSW) MAY operate in FULL -AUTO Mode but  NOT shoot in excess of 30 round per second.

B. 450 fps max @ 6mm x .20g for AEG/GBBR

C. 355 FPS max(1.88 J) w/ .32g for 6mm High Pressure Gas Weapons (Classics, PolarStars).

[KsWrench 48]

A. I am 100% behind the semi-only rule for rifleman. I like that it allows people to move a bit more, and the likelihood of overshooting goea way down.

 

B. I am not necessarily for or against the 450fps limit for SAWs. I always assumed that it was to give them an advantage on range and make it easier to cut through brush. You want that capability? Carry a full on support weapon.

[Erock 3]

I'd like to hear an Admin chime in on this.

 

I'm basing my topic or question on firsthand experience. It's really frustrating to be called a cheater only to have staff recheck and confirm you are legal. I would imagine everyone of us has seen this happen someway or another. Someones feelings get hurt and they assume and call the other player a cheater.

If nothing changes thats fine. Wont hurt my feelings

[Guest Specs]

A. I am 100% behind the semi-only rule for rifleman. I like that it allows people to move a bit more, and the likelihood of overshooting goea way down.

 

B. I am not necessarily for or against the 450fps limit for SAWs. I always assumed that it was to give them an advantage on range and make it easier to cut through brush. You want that capability? Carry a full on support weapon.

 Good point on the vegetation. Hadn't considered that. I think it's important as well in giving POV's an edge and importance as well which is easy to overlook.

[Steelranger1985 8]

I agree with the OP, minimum engagement distance is a little silly if you are firing at someone far away and then someone walks round the corner within 60ft and you cant shoot them, this seems unrealistic to me, maybe 30ft or just not point blank could be worth a try.

 

As for full auto with SMG's having a low fps limit like 280fps, real caps only as well as having to be a SMG like the DMR or LMG rules could be a cool compromise, would probably only be worth it in UO though.  

 

But all this really comes down to is if you are running an airsoft event you will get less issues/heated arguments if you don't have people hosing each other at close range because we still get issues with semi only, so they are probably doing it right.

 

RY3 was my first AMS event and I think the balance was pretty good especially running as a support gunner, its best that most players fire semi as it increases realism, could having smg's running full auto work, would be interesting to try.

 

Cheers, 

[Chewy 6]

Hey Guys,

 

As someone who has owned and run an SSW at my local TASO regulated games, the 40ft ROE really hasn't ever been an issue, nor do I really see the AMS 60ft ROE as that much more of a handicap. As long as one plays the role well and has the right squad support, people coming within 60ft is the exception, not the rule. I mean, unless I'm stalking prey behind enemy lines or taking point while enter a building, I don't generally engage people up that close. And those are activities that I generally don't engage in while fielding such a large replica. Besides, I like being able to say "Too close for missiles, switching to guns" when I pull my sidearm.

 

Just another two cents,

[Guest Specs]

"Too close for missiles, switching to guns" when I pull my sidearm.

+1 To pulling sidearms. As a DM, I'm in the same boat and honestly enjoy those occasions. Adds some variation to the event and adds realism to my kit in planning for it.

[sfischer 2]

With all the gear and whatnot that we wear to these events I wouldn't be entirely opposed to raising the fps limit to 450 or 500 for the rifleman class. It can be difficult to feel or hear your hits when you're wearing so much and I think it would help get rid of some of the shrugging.

[Dave 781]

Not only no, but hell no.  Take a few BBs at 500 FPS at point blank to the mouth and throat and check back with us.

 

 

Players not calling hits is a fault of the few, not the majority.  They are usually dealt with pretty quickly.

[Erock 3]

Not only no, but hell no. Take a few BBs at 500 FPS at point blank to the mouth and throat and check back with us.

 

 

Players not calling hits is a fault of the few, not the majority. They are usually dealt with pretty quickly.

+1

Thank you!

[KsWrench 48]

Not only no, but hell no. Take a few BBs at 500 FPS at point blank to the mouth and throat and check back with us.

 

 

Players not calling hits is a fault of the few, not the majority. They are usually dealt with pretty quickly.

QFT!

 

If you can't feel huts through a vest, you need to pay more attention to the sound. It's pretty obvious to hear when a BB strikes Cordura.

[LZ129 4]

The full auto ability is the only benefit that SAW gunners get in exchange for carrying a heavy ass piece of hardware and having engagement distance restrictions. As an event organizer, myself, I can say that switching to semi-only for riflemen has earned nothing but praise in my local community. Being a SAW gunner is actually WORTH it, now. 

 

The extra 50 FPS doesn't really do anything but help accommodate the fact that some support weapons/LMGs shoot a little over 400 FPS, stock, new from the factory. Personally, mine shoots around 350, but she is quite well broken in. 

[Beaver 105]

Let's take into account the original purpose of a SSW or Weapons Team (M249, RPK, M240, M60...). Is it their job to engage with pinpoint accuracy and elimate the opposition? Or is it to lay suppressive fire in order for the manuever element to assault the objective?

If, as the SSW, you are  getting the most kills then your squad needs to retrain.

FPS limits and engagement distance is in play to keep all players safe from undue harm. If someone rolls up on you "from 40 ft, around the corner" then you are outside of the protection of the rest of your squad (middle man). For those of us that have been engaged inside the engagement range, it sucks.

As far as the idea of increased FPS due to the kits people wear, I'll stick with Dave. I don't care if you're wearing a Level III bomb suit, if the RPK hits you with 15 rounds to the chest there is no way you can tell me (as a Red Shirt) that you didn't notice the hits. Besides where is the consideration for the new players on the field in a BDU/DCU blouse and no gear?