Hydration rule?

[Spook 10]

I've noticed that a lot of players (in my area anyway) tend to wear out quickly in the excessive heat and humidity. To that effect, I'm going to make a suggestion to keep people well hydrated. 

Each time a player has to be medevac-ed, before they can return to play, they must drink a bottle of water (a standard size plastic bottle) like you'd buy in a case, or demonstrate to a squad leader/authority figure that they have adequate water on their person. (You can get sick from over-drinking too). Consider the bottle of water an "IV". 

Each aid station would be stocked with water for the purpose of the rule. 

[T-REX 242]

or you simply hydrate before the event and not get in an issue at the event. im not chugging a bottle at the fob because an admin tells me too. i carry 1 liter of water on me during an op. i hve no need for a camelbak. just hydrate before and stay hydrated during. 

[Aswayze 364]

A so you must be new to airsoft T...

 

The guys who know what they are doing hydrate before during and after events. They are not the problem, it is the 25% or so of attendees whose only experience comes from video games who make up 90% of the admin hassles by among other things becoming heat/cold casualties.

 

I know some guys out in California who use this rule to good effect in their games. It works particularly well since the guys who get hit the most, noobs, are also the ones who constantly need medical assistance for hydration issues.

 

I would use this rule at East Wind if I didn't have a 2 hour respawn time, which accomplishes much the same goal.

[T-REX 242]

NO I AM NOT NEW TO AIRSOFT, NOR DO I WORRY ABOUT OTHER PLAYERS. i CAN ONLY WORRY ABOUT MYSELF. i CAN NOT MAKE YOU HYDRATE. NOR AM I WILLING TO SPEND TIME ASKING EVERYBODY IF THEY ARE HYDRATING. IM THERE TO SHOOT PEOPLE. IF YOUR DEHYDRATED, THAT IS ON YOU.

sorry for the caps, guess my caps lock was on and im not going back

[Aswayze 364]

That is because you are a player, not an admin or an event host. Non-hydrating noobs do not effect you, you do not have to transport them out, you do not have to provide medical aid, you do not have to coordinate ambulances...

 

I.e. you are new to airsoft. ;-)

[Kolt1911 75]

I learned my lesson several times at East Wind that if you are not carrying a gallon of water and drinking at least a quart an hour and occasionally one of those tiny bottles of Gatorade to replace the electrolytes you're pissing/sweating away, you are a dead man.

I think I overhydrated a lot as well. I was urinating about 4 times an hour and I had an underlying feeling of nausea and stomach ache.
I was also a scrawny suburban kid that wasn't acclimated to such a physically stressful environment. Damn I wish I could try again knowing what I know now.

[Bob_IRL 74]

The only problem I can see is somebody drinking it too fast to do much good.

[Sisu 288]

I've always liked the "You must have hydration on your person" rule.

You're carrying your rifle, mags, and most of the time a crap ton of gear you probably don't need. So having a camelbak or canteen or someone on your person shouldn't be a big deal.
You can't FORCE someone to drink, but I do think it is about teamwork. We should all be looking out for each other anyway. In my opinion, that's what makes us a community.

I know that based on what I'm hearing about the weather this weekend, I would HIGHLY encourage everyone to police each other on this. Whether you're CO, XO, squad leader, whatever... Make sure your teams have water (even if it's a water bottle or two) and make sure they're drinking. No fun when you miss half the OP cause your body quits on you.

[Thibideaux 13]

As much as I like this idea it has some major holes. Number one hole in your plan is who is going to supply these bottles of water and number two hole is who is going to enforce the drinking of the water bottles? If ever player has to drink a bottle of water every time they go to the med station and every player cycles through a station only 10 times in a day, that comes to about 2500 bottles per day. With mobile med stations someone has to move the water with the station every time. Next, there now has to be an admin at every station keeping an eye out for people drinking their bottle of water and only taking one bottle at a time. Oh another issue is what are we going to do with all the empty water bottles from each med station seeing as there are already issues with people policing their trash as it is. 

[Guest Specs]

It's everyone's own responsibility to keep hydrated. If you go down due to heat and lack of water, that's on you. I'd consider water to be the most useful weight on your kit. Period.

 

But as a SQL, I like to give my guys occasional reminders as we go since I know people can get distracted depending on the situation. Keep water on you. As much as you'll need. And keep more in a bag at your FOB. 

 

This isn't a rule because AMS and admins expect us to have our big boy pants on and to take care of ourselves. Of all things, dropping out of the game due to poor hydration is lame, and of poor responsibility to yourself and your team. 

[Aswayze 364]

Except that too many of you do not own big pants and would not know what to do with them if you did...  

 

Again for those of you who are stuck in "me" land and are not following that there are people who have to actually do something in order for events to happen.  

 

Many airsofters are idiots who are a danger to themselves when they mow the yard never mind actually go exert themselves outside.  They say overtly stupid things like:

 

"i carry 1 liter of water on me during an op"

 

And before too long they end up becoming yet another problem for admins to deal with.   (You had better be drinking more than that every hour)

 

Others say things like: 

 

" NOR AM I WILLING TO SPEND TIME ASKING EVERYBODY IF THEY ARE HYDRATING. IM THERE TO SHOOT PEOPLE. IF YOUR DEHYDRATED, THAT IS ON YOU." 

 

Again basically saying that the people who do not hydrate are someone elses problem and that nothing should get in the way of me me me.  

 

 

Too few players say things like:  

 

 " I would HIGHLY encourage everyone to police each other on this. Whether you're CO, XO, squad leader, whatever... Make sure your teams have water (even if it's a water bottle or two) and make sure they're drinking."

 

And even fewer are willing to act on it.  

 

Fact is guys that the quality of entry level airsofter is dropping dramatically.   We started this sport with mostly outdoors folks and the mass influx of video gamers has put more and more strain on admins and leadership to keep this indoors types from keeling over when exposed to the wild world outside of their parents basement.    Where 10 years ago we used to run 100+ player games with no admins at all now we are increasingly having to have more and more admin staff around to deal with the idiots.   As the years wear on we are seeing more and more "noobs" who have been playing for 6 or 7 year and have managed to personally advance themselves to the level of "noob" in all that span of time...  

 

Rules like this are not intended to deal with the good players.  If you do not have hydration issues changes like this are not aimed at you.  Changes like this are aimed at the guys who have not yet adapted to strenuous outdoor activity.   Just as importantly, they are aimed at freeing the admin staff from dealing with a constant barrage of bullshit.  

 

Ask yourself this:  What else COULD be done to improve game flow, missions, planning, props, transport etc if the admins were able to focus strictly on that and not having to skitter here and there all day dealing with heat casualties? 

 

Even the "me me me me" guys arguing the "me me me me" angle in this thread have got to understand that "you you you you" are negatively impacted by people going down as heat casualties since the quality of the game ends up dropping when admins are all tied up dealing with that crap.   

 

This respawn rule is not for you, it is not even for the noob video gamers, it is for the admins.   Admins like to enjoy games as well sometimes.  

[Spartan911 140]

I think we should enact a rule to force people to eat prunes every time they respawn, this way they keep regular.  Sounds silly doesn't it?  How about we encourage people to take responsibilty for themselves.  How about we understand people sometimes overestimate their abilities and that we need to keep an eye on everyone.  With that said, I challenge you to come over to me and DEMAND I hydrate.  Let's see how that works out for you.  You're opinions hold no value when you make statements such as "Many airsofters are idiots who are a danger to themselves when they mow the yard never mind actually go exert themselves outside."  I'm sure you have the basic English comprehesion to convey your points without resorting to insulting people.  Or maybe you don't.  Either way, make sure you eat your prunes.

[Sisu 288]

The fact of the matter is, AMS legally wouldn't be able to FORCE people to drink. They can encourage it. 
(Nevermind the fact of who would foot the bill to provide that water... semantics).

[Aswayze 364]

Is it horrible that they require you to wrap the "wounded" area with an ace wrap?  

 

Who pays for the ace wrap?  

 

Suppose it is possible to have those same folks pay for water?

 

Who is forcing you to respawn at all?  

 

A rule like this is just a simple way FOR PEOPLE WHO RUN GAMES to have a respawn system that reduces the work load on the admins and staff who could better be employed making the event the best it can be instead of having to constantly shuttle pasty faced video gamers who are down with heat exhaustion back and forth.

 

If you are insulted by what I am saying than you are likely part of the problem...

 

Dare me to force you to hydrate?  Nah, I do not do that at my games at all, I just make sure that you do not come back if you are one of the folks who takes from the overall experience of attendees instead of adding to it.   At my event I would not force you to hydrate I would just not let you come back if you were a problem.  Easy as that.  Milsim is supposed to be a cut above open play grab ass airsoft, the leaders should be able to lead, the admins should be able to admin, the vehicles should be being used for tactical purposes instead of everyone having to deal with irresponsible children who cannot manage themselves.  

 

 

Quote:

You're opinions hold no value when you make statements such as "Many airsofters are idiots who are a danger to themselves when they mow the yard never mind actually go exert themselves outside."

 

Well then let me restate that again: 

 

Many airsofters are idiots who are a danger to themselves when they mow the yard never mind actually go exert themselves outside.

 

ANYONE who has actually ran a major event knows the sub set of the sport I am talking about.   Anyone who has not, probably does not.  

[Spartan911 140]

OK, you win.  I bow to your all mighty omnipotent authority for all things airsoft/milsim related.

[Aswayze 364]

Thank you!  About time already.  See,  Spartan gets it! 

 

All shall bow before me!  

 

 

Na, seriously this sort of stuff has more to do with collectively working to improve the quality of events.  

 

Remember that anything which pulls resources away on event day is stealing from the experience of the good players whether is it field related bullshit, issues with locked gates, porta-johns, or here the simple fact that all too many attendees cannot get it into their heads that they need to drink water.   

 

"Why are we still standing here?  The truck was supposed to be here 20 minutes ago?"  **Cause the truck is hauling heat casulties** 

 

"Why is this damn gate locked, JP said it would be open for us?"  Because JP has 999 things to do 90% of which are stupid things he shouldn't have to deal with.  

 

"Jesus, it has been an hour since we got an update from higher, what the hell is going on?"  Higher is being besieged by time bandits who are constantly hassling them with trivial crap thus preventing them from the primary mission:  Making a good event for everyone.  

[Alex AMS 614]

When I personally push for thing to be applied to events, the first thing I consider is management.  Can it manage itself, or does it require someone to keep track of it.  I feel that players should be able to manage their own hydration, but I also agree that there are plenty of players that don't heed the advice from experience that they should.  Some of these suggestions have....kind of been used.

 

Broken Home is a great example.

 

We had cases of bottled water that we moved to the areas around mobile spawn points.  People complained that this water wasn't cold, and it created a great deal of trash.  We had water in Buffalo's.  We also ran missions to the Buffalo's and had factions fill up their 5-gallon Jerry can's that they could then distribute however they wanted to players in the field.

 

The thing is, these games are player driven.  We handle the missions and the logistics, but at the end of the day it's up to the player, and player leadership to keep the fight up in order to be victorious.  This includes keeping your troops supplied with water and rotating them throughout the fight when it's REALLY hot outside.  You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.  

[Spartan911 140]

To be serious for a moment, mandating people drink each time they respawn can be detrimental to their health.  Each person dehydrates at different rates, you don't know what their hydration status is prior to the event, nor during.  You don't know their electorlyte levels (unless you bring an iSTAT and know how to use it and how to clinically interpret the results).

 

Let's look at an example, you have an individual in his mid 40s who is in relative good health.  He knows dehydration is going to be an issue at this particular event so he starts hydrating a day or two prior.  The problem is, he consumes nothing but water which slowly drives his serum sodium levels down.  He gets to the event and is mandated to consume more and more water, driving his serum sodium down even further, to the point where he goes into a state know as dilutional or euvolemic hyponatremia.  Now, here's the sticky wicket, he starts to show the following symptoms: confusion, fatigue, headache, nausea/vomitting, and weakness.  Those symptoms sound a lot like someone who maybe dehydrated, but he's not, he's over hydrated.  So now that we have this poor gentleman in a hyponatremic state he is now at risk for complications like dysrythmias, brain herniation, the list goes on.

 

Everyone needs to drink water.  I agree that it is very easy to forget to drink when you're having a good time shooting people with plastic.  People know if they need to drink water, they may need a small reminder now and then, but forcing water consuption can lead to a bad day. 

 

Just my unsolicited two cents.

[Sisu 288]

^ Anyone who wants to argue with that should know, he does this sort of thing for a living... lol.

[Aswayze 364]

Well perhaps I do not over hydrate for a living but I have been doing this stuff at a leadership level for over a decade.  

 

I have never seen over hydration problems at events.  

 

We USED to not have dehydration problems but now when I am out at events and it gets hot I am usually 100% tasked out dealing with dehydration problems instead of doing anything else.  

 

DEHYDRATION is the problem...  

 

Looking at it from the medic rule perspective,  exactly how much extra water are we talking about?  If you can be mediced in once then you need to go back to the respawn point how fast do you suppose you'll be downing that water.  Seems like not too fast...  At big games, I generally find myself hit and being mediced perhaps 2-4 times per day.  Mind you, I fight with my brain and do not subscribe to the Yosemite Sam charge principle of attack but even those that do are still not getting mediced most of those times since failed attacks rarely lead to medic opportunities.

 

Remember, we are talking about Milsim here, not 3,2,1, go! speedball type games.  Milsim games do not usually see the rapid/repeating casualties that you'll see in open play events unless your leaders are doing it wrong.   

[Sisu 288]

Yeah, that's exactly what I meant... He over hydrates for a living. Wow.
You think you would've got from the tone of the post that he MAY have come clinical experience with critical care instead of making a snarky comment like a 13yr old. Yes. That was meant as a jab. That being said, if you seriously feel it necessary to continue this, you can message me (although I doubt that).

Just quit trolling, good god. This is why people get so sick of the drama. You might as well post something to the effect of, "NO ONE MUST HAVE A DIFFERENT OPINION FROM ME! RAWR!!!" You just HAVE to be right, huh?

I'm gonna go ahead and do us both a favor and not bother posting on this thread anymore. 
Sorry AMS staff for perpetuating the same repetitive argument over and over. 

[Aswayze 364]

Remember, I am not talking to you two, I am discussing the various merits of the rule.  

 

So far we have discussed: 

 

"Don't nobody need to tell me to drink, I carry 1 liter of water with me!"   << Good example of why the rule would help.

 

"It's none of my business if other people are hydrating" << Of course not, it's the admins problem...

 

"Who is going to buy all this water!"  << Players...  Duh... 

 

and now:

 

"People will over hydrate!"  << Not likely..

 

First and foremost I have been pointing out that dehydration and heat problems are an issue that Admin staff deals with constantly.   I have pointed out several times that when you look at a rule like this you need to keep in mind that the point of this is primarily to keep everyone safe and to lighten the admin load.  

 

As far as the over hydrating for a living thing that was obviously intended as humor.  I found it funny!  If you found it insulting than you are probably a little emotionally unstable.   So taking the "clinical" angle, what would you say that the percentage of over hydration problems is to dehydration problems? 

 

 

[Bane 39]

All this shenanigans is easily solved at the lowest level of leadership: the squad leader. Part of being an effective leader is ensuring the physical health of your troops. Admins shouldn't be enforcing hydration or forcing people to hydrate at spawn points. The squad leaders should be ensuring their guys (and gals) are hydrating adequately throughout the day. It really isn't that hard to look at your squad when they're all standing around waiting for action, or taking a break during movements, or respawning etc. to say "everyone hydrate." Squad leaders (and squad mates) should also be watching out for one another. Sure, you can tell everyone to drink water, but if they make their own choice not to, a leader should be paying attention to how their team is performing and paying attention to the symptoms of a heat casualty. If someone is dragging ass, sit them the fuck down, unsheath the knife hand and get them back in shape. That's the responsibility of being a leader. You choose to ensure your team makes it through the day effectively. It's milsim right? So if you elect to be a squad leader because you want to "act" like a leader, why not be a leader and police your troops? 

 

At the end of the day we're all grown ups here or under the supervision of a grown up. You've got to take responsibility for yourself and your actions. If someone wants to carry a liter of water on the field and refill that bastard six times, so be it. If someone doesn't want to hydrate before the event, it isn't my responsibility to pay extra to provide them with water and force them to drink it. Hydration is an over stressed topic. It's blasted over the airways prior to the event, prior to STARTEX, and during play. You can only hold someone's hand for so long before they need to grow up and be responsible.

 

Further, it's the players responsibility to be truthful during LACE reports and to get off the field if they have no water or are starting to feel those classic heat casualty symptoms. No one on that field is an operator. Sorry. You don't have to go Delta, SEAL, Ninja-Warrior trying to prove you're a bad ass because the only thing that will happen from being irresponsible is your ass will fall out. You'll only prove that you're really just an idiot because you can't assess your situation and make a solid decision about your abilities and your physical health. 

 

I understand your concern but your solution is logistically unsound. Back in the day MSE tried to supply water bottles to everyone on the field and D-Day ended up being a trash heap. Their response was "never again." That's the kind of thing that ensures we don't get invited back to the AO. That's a loss for everyone. Also, I will not pay for someone that has no desire to be responsible for their own health. I already have to do that with my taxes, I don't want to do it for my hobbies too. Players need to look out for themselves first, then their teammates, and above all, first line leaders need to look out for their squads. 

[Aswayze 364]

#1, not my idea, I just think it is a good one.  

 

#2, I know all about the water bottles, I was the one who stayed the next day and cleaned them up.   I do not throw out my favorite coffee cup every time I drink all my coffee, it gets refilled.  I am pretty sure that the same thing can be done with water bottles, the CONCEPT is solid.  5 years ago, I would have agreed completely with you.  Now is not 5 years ago though and we are dealing with a less apt player base these days, so doing things like this which help to insure their success on the field seems like a win/win situation to me.  

[T-REX 242]

I carry 1 liter of water because I know MY body. I hydrate prior to the event and consume the correct foods and drink the correct fluids to ensure I can push the entire time. You claim that I am new to airsoft because I don't have the desire to make others hydrate. Or maybe it's because I don't run events? I couldn't figure it out over you clouded perception of logistics, medical information, and overall lack of communication skills. As for your events, I have never heard of you so I guess that means your the one doing something wrong. AMS does the best job they can with what they have. Put 250 players on an AO. Add in the hot weather, the stress, arguments, cheating, ect. Only so many admins to go around to supply water and police the AO. People asked me constantly all weekend if I was ok when I was simply taking a quick breather. I'm a bigger guy than some, I sweat a lot. However I know my limits and those limits begin at game start and end at game end. I hydrate when I need to, nor when you tell me to. Re-examine yourself. Worry about yourself before passing detrimental information to the players that know no better. It if you become a heat casualty, it is your own doing. You can stage your own water sources at the FOB, carry all you want, and hydrate before the game. It's simple. Just shoot people.