M27/IAR a Support Weapon?

[dot 29]

If there is to be any limit on mags, I would say 12-16 mid caps. Anything over that is pretty hard to manage for a single individual. With that said, I think that we really need lock down on some way to make identifying the gun or the 'Support' role itself a lot easier. Arm bands, Zip ties, whatever are things to start considering. Once people start rolling out with the Black M27's they are basically a 416 with a longer rail/outer barrel as far as Airsoft is concerned. There are already fake M27's in Airsoft that prove that. The special edition M27 IAR from Elite Force is pretty easy to identify for anybody who has seen one, but the black ones will not be. 

[Scott 69]

I know what your saying DOT but it just seems like some of the responses are delving into the childish side of things.

 

Anyway back on the subject. If the M27 is ever allowed as a support gun wouldn't putting a box mag on it help to distinguish even more as a support weapon? Put a box mag with something else (arm band, zip tie, etc) and it should be pretty easy to tell. I know the real version takes regular M4 mags. I'm just trying to think of less issues on the field.

[Parks 121]

Wow, just keep crying about a dead issue. Lmao

[dot 29]

I know what your saying DOT but it just seems like some of the responses are delving into the childish side of things.

 

Anyway back on the subject. If the M27 is ever allowed as a support gun wouldn't putting a box mag on it help to distinguish even more as a support weapon? Put a box mag with something else (arm band, zip tie, etc) and it should be pretty easy to tell. I know the real version takes regular M4 mags. I'm just trying to think of less issues on the field.

 

I agree, and I personally think that allowing a Box mag would greatly assist in making it identifiable. Several people are leaning toward the true 'milsim' side of things, which would force the gun into mid caps. We run drum mags on our support weapons, and would do the same with the M27 given the chance. If it was up to me, I would throw a drum mag on the gun with an identifying zip tie (yellow?) and if needed go ahead and do an arm band. I would fully expect an Admin to inspect the gun once or twice throughout the day, but it would make it a lot easier to identify than it would be now.

[nateisthebest05 37]

My only thing on the drum is it's not a belt fed weapon in the military. But that's jus me.

I would say as far as identifing it could be as easy as a list the admin have of players with the M27. But zip ties an armband are great ideas or maybe even a sticker you get at chrono but different color. Maybe even ever weapon class should have its own color sticker.

[Thibideaux 13]

Other than the fact an rpk is twice as long as a standard ak. Let's expand! Your suburban doesn't look like an apc. So let's ban PoV's. Your potatoe launcher doesn't look like a rocket launcher! Gone. Gezus guys,

The RPK is about 5-6 inches longer than the AK47, that is about the same difference between the M27 and the 416.

 

A POV on the field does not mean it is being used as an APC, most are just gun trucks or troop movers.

 

As for the launchers, well if you have an affordable and readily available solution I am all ears.

[Parks 121]

I'm just trying to say that ams has stated their opinion and unfortunately they will probably stick to it. Is it a support weapon? Yes, and should be able to be used as one. But, there are other rules that a have bigger issue with. After all this game only works if everyone plays by the honor system. If I can be trusted to call my hits. Why can't I be trusted to not turn my m4 into a m27. I agree with y'all's points.

[DLockett86 12]

Well since everyone is allowed to have 1500 rnds loaded and the M27 gunners carry up to 16 mags, it seems logical that a M27 with 90 rnd mags would put it inline with it's intended role.

[sarrow124 1]

I think the point it this:
You asked the admins if the M27 could be used as a support weapon. They said not at this time. You bitched about it.

Seriously guys. /Thread. You got your answer and now you are trying to rule bend out of it. If you don't like it, don't go.

[nateisthebest05 37]

I think the point it this:

You asked the admins if the M27 could be used as a support weapon. They said not at this time. You bitched about it.

 

Seriously guys. /Thread. You got your answer and now you are trying to rule bend out of it. If you don't like it, don't go.

It's a thread. Don't read it if you don't agree. It's not a bitching thread it's people coming up wit ways to make it work. So maybe AMS will read it and see "oh well we didn't think about doing it that way. Let's try it". If people don't talk about things nothing will ever change and that goes for anything in life. No one is bitching about the rule. No one is trying to find a loop hole. We and simply throwing out ideas that might work in the future. And once again why the hell to people find it necessary to get on here and comment stupid shit that has nothing to do with this and help in no way. If you don't like it of agree you don't have to read and damn sure don't have to comment on it.

[dot 29]

I think the point it this:

You asked the admins if the M27 could be used as a support weapon. They said not at this time. You bitched about it.

 

Seriously guys. /Thread. You got your answer and now you are trying to rule bend out of it. If you don't like it, don't go.

 

I don't think that you fully grasp the big picture here. Finding a resolution to an issue is not rule bending. We are running our M27 P* as a DMR at Broken Home and will do so until AMS decides to reconsider the M27 as a Support weapon. We have valid reason to 'bitch' about a rule when the sole basis of it being in place is that a good portion of the player base can't identify it as a Support weapon. Like I said above, I fully expect admins to check the gun even after things are set in place to make it easier to identify. Some people have a hard time adapting to new things.

 

As for SEISOPS being at Broken Home...Don't worry, we will be there. 

[dot 29]

Well since everyone is allowed to have 1500 rnds loaded and the M27 gunners carry up to 16 mags, it seems logical that a M27 with 90 rnd mags would put it inline with it's intended role.

 

This would be manageable for sure.

[Cyper 15]

MILSIMER’s,

 

I’m not here to beat a dead horse, but I would merely like to throw in my two cents and state that airsoft has evolved in to a new era of game. We’ve gone from being “SPEED BALLER’S†to Hard Core “MILSIM Operatorsâ€. We’ve transitioned from playing in paintball fields to fully constructed makeshift cities and highly realistic, real world scenario fields. We’ve introduced APC’s, ATV’s, PMC designed vehicles and have even gone all out HELO involved operations. MILSIM is what separates us from being the professional operators we portray from those back yard players you may see anywhere else. It is in fact what has allowed us to take the sport to a whole new level. So with that, I think AMS (American MilSim) should continue being the leading innovators they are and adapt to the newly evolved game it has become and allow the newly introduced weaponry that has been the bases of MilSim (Military Simulation) for as long as it’s been around…please see  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MilSim

 

Should the M27 be allowed utilization as a support weapon as it is intended and used in our current military? YES! If not, I say we stop calling ourselves MilSim Operators and just start referring ourselves to airsoft players.

 

NOPE!  Somehow it really doesn’t sound quite right when I say it…â€AMERICAN AIRSOFT†I like it better when I say “AMERICAN MILSIMâ€. AMS, do your duty and work with the MilSim community to find a resolution to allow the M27 to be used in your events.

 

Lastly, please remember it’s all based on the honor system so play honorably…

 

CYPER OUT!

[Ronin 5]

Personally, I think some of you guys are losing sight of WHY the Marine Corps have started incorporating this new weapon as a replacement for the M-249. You want to use it as your SAW for these OP's so that you have have a high-cap weapon capable of spraying and laying down suppressing fire, when that is what the Marine Corps is getting away from by replacing the M-249. In my personal opinion, if you're willing to use the M27 as your squad support weapon, you would understand that this an addition to your squads potential accuracy/range down field, and NOT supposed to add to your volume of fire, as a belt-fed LMG would. While these rifles are being added to Marine Corps squads as a SSW, they still use the same 30 round magazines as the M16's and M4's, and the Marine's using them are being trained to fire semi-auto first with accuracy, only resorting to suppressing fully automatic fire when ordered. Hell, one of the articles I read, one of the Marines being interviewed on how he liked the M27 stated that he had already been used as a designated marksmen several times ALONG with being a SSW.

 

I understand that AMS is keeping the M27 classified as an assault rifle for recognition purposes, but for what the IAR is going to serve in "real combat", it's current role in AMS works as well to an extent. The only other thing that I can think of to make players using the IAR as a SSW in AMS events, is to have all registered SSW's wear a certain color armband or something along those lines. That way if someone gets lit up by what looks like to be a fully automatic M416/M4 at range, they can perhaps see the colored armband and understand that it was actually a M27 IAR. 

 

On the other hand, maybe you should have waited to see what the AMS deemed the rules would be for the IAR before dumping a ton of money into it, intending it to be your SSW at AMS events... The great thing is that you can still just use it as an assault rifle or DMR. Either way, that's my opinion from what I've read on the IAR as the Marine Corps has tested/fielded it over the last year or so. 

[Junior16 50]

What Ronin just described is a DMR's job. We provide accurate precision cover fire. The only difference with the M27 from the Marine Corp M14 is that it has the full auto option. Very useful sometimes. If we are going to do real hardcore Milsim, we should maybe take into consideration the M4A1. But in answer to the hardcore Milsim airsofters, airsoft bbs are not as accurate as real bullets. I mean, it takes 3-4 bbs to hit something 200ft away that should take one bullet. And don't even get me started on drywall....

Airsoft is just NOT the same as the real thing!! And we can't act like it is. Is there an airsoft gun that shoots past 150yds? I don't think so.

[nateisthebest05 37]

M27 is NOT a DMR in the military. It is no more accurate at shooting long ranger then a M16. And now this is getting off of what this thread was about.

It's trying to put the mil in Milsim. If it's a support weapon the. We should get to run it as one. If it's a sniper rifle then we should run it as one. DRM the same.

The M27 is just the tip of the ice burge. It's primary perpuse is to descise the fact to scouts that a Squad has a Support weapon. It is used in real world in semi auto until the shit it's the fan and you need fire superiority on the battlefield. This is airsoft so the hole day is a firefight for the most part. So yes it will be in full auto.

The fact the real one is not belt fed is so if the gunner was to go black on ammo he could get more from his battles, and that's why I believe if it's ever gonna be a SSW it cannot have big caps or drums. Because if your argument is "well it's milsim and real military uses them" then you need to run it the way it is suppose to be.

[Doc Dodge 666]

And,,,, what about SMGs ( i.e. Thompsons, Stens, Schmiessers, etc. ) that were developed as close in full auto weapons?

I agree with the semi-only rule for riflemen. I also think that there should be only 1 slot per squad for a support weapon, whatever that weapon might be. I just ask that nobody gets stupid and thinks that slapping a C-mag into a M16 and hanging a bipod on it turns it into a LMG.

[dot 29]

Personally, I think some of you guys are losing sight of WHY the Marine Corps have started incorporating this new weapon as a replacement for the M-249. You want to use it as your SAW for these OP's so that you have have a high-cap weapon capable of spraying and laying down suppressing fire, when that is what the Marine Corps is getting away from by replacing the M-249. In my personal opinion, if you're willing to use the M27 as your squad support weapon, you would understand that this an addition to your squads potential accuracy/range down field, and NOT supposed to add to your volume of fire, as a belt-fed LMG would. While these rifles are being added to Marine Corps squads as a SSW, they still use the same 30 round magazines as the M16's and M4's, and the Marine's using them are being trained to fire semi-auto first with accuracy, only resorting to suppressing fully automatic fire when ordered. Hell, one of the articles I read, one of the Marines being interviewed on how he liked the M27 stated that he had already been used as a designated marksmen several times ALONG with being a SSW.

 

The complaints about not being able to run the M27 IAR as a SAW have zero to do with wanting to run it as a replacement to an LMG with limitless ammo. We have plenty of those and they are running P* systems as well. Limiting the M27 to a set amount of mid caps would be perfectly fine. We are fully aware of how the gun is used in real life.

 

 

 

I understand that AMS is keeping the M27 classified as an assault rifle for recognition purposes, but for what the IAR is going to serve in "real combat", it's current role in AMS works as well to an extent. The only other thing that I can think of to make players using the IAR as a SSW in AMS events, is to have all registered SSW's wear a certain color armband or something along those lines. That way if someone gets lit up by what looks like to be a fully automatic M416/M4 at range, they can perhaps see the colored armband and understand that it was actually a M27 IAR.

 

Hey, you got back on topic. Now we can get back to discussing a solution to the problem..

 

 

On the other hand, maybe you should have waited to see what the AMS deemed the rules would be for the IAR before dumping a ton of money into it, intending it to be your SSW at AMS events... The great thing is that you can still just use it as an assault rifle or DMR. Either way, that's my opinion from what I've read on the IAR as the Marine Corps has tested/fielded it over the last year or so.

 

This is not a money issue at all, trust me. Why would we run it as an assault rifle? We have plenty of 416's and similar platforms for that. Sure, it makes a good DMR but we have DMR's. 

 

The problem that is at hand is the fact that people can't identify the gun as a support weapon. This is nothing more than an identification issue, and that is a pretty weak excuse. This is Milsim and people need to step up and start learning the weapons that are out there so that they don't limit others due to their own lack of knowledge. 

[dot 29]

What Ronin just described is a DMR's job. We provide accurate precision cover fire. The only difference with the M27 from the Marine Corp M14 is that it has the full auto option. Very useful sometimes. If we are going to do real hardcore Milsim, we should maybe take into consideration the M4A1. But in answer to the hardcore Milsim airsofters, airsoft bbs are not as accurate as real bullets. I mean, it takes 3-4 bbs to hit something 200ft away that should take one bullet. And don't even get me started on drywall....

Airsoft is just NOT the same as the real thing!! And we can't act like it is. Is there an airsoft gun that shoots past 150yds? I don't think so.

 

So, I am sitting here reading your response and was hanging on for the first few sentences and then things went weird. You are degrading Airsoft Milsim based on the fact that BB's can't shoot as far as Bullets? Nobody is saying ANYTHING about the range of these guns, because that is not even in question and is also silly to even discuss when trying to get a gun to be used in the Milsim setting. According to your logic, we should all just go back to playing on paintball fields. I mean, our guns don't shoot as far as real ones so why even try to be Milsim?

 

You are obviously lost in this thread, so let me help you out. The M27 IAR is used as a SAW in real life and should be used the same in Airsoft Milsim. Forcing it into a DMR role purely based on the fact that it can't be readily identified by someone who will more than likely cry foul about anything is silly. I personally think that the Armband idea would work perfectly, if anything to make it easier for Admins to identify them when they are called on about the gun.

[dot 29]

And,,,, what about SMGs ( i.e. Thompsons, Stens, Schmiessers, etc. ) that were developed as close in full auto weapons?

I agree with the semi-only rule for riflemen. I also think that there should be only 1 slot per squad for a support weapon, whatever that weapon might be. I just ask that nobody gets stupid and thinks that slapping a C-mag into a M16 and hanging a bipod on it turns it into a LMG.

 

I agree 100%.

[nateisthebest05 37]

And,,,, what about SMGs ( i.e. Thompsons, Stens, Schmiessers, etc. ) that were developed as close in full auto weapons?

I agree with the semi-only rule for riflemen. I also think that there should be only 1 slot per squad for a support weapon, whatever that weapon might be. I just ask that nobody gets stupid and thinks that slapping a C-mag into a M16 and hanging a bipod on it turns it into a LMG.

Like I said this topic to me is the tip of the ice burge. SMGs should be a class or sub class. Maybe with a lesser FPS seeing as most shoot pistol ammo in real steel verison.

[screwballjim 94]

I could agree on the smg full auto at 300 fps max but then we open a whole new can of worms lol

[Aswayze 364]

I have been following this thread for a while mostly as a "remember why you don't want to start running or assisting normal airsoft OPs again" treatment for my brain.  

 

Armbands?  No.  

 

Special sub class?  No. 

 

Different mags?  No. 

 

Special rules?  No.  

 

Rules need to be simple, easy to understand, easy to enforce, and playable.    If you are wanting to add paragraph after paragraph of blah blah blah to the rules just to suit your particular circumstances then you are probably being self centered and not seeing the big picture.

 

Question asked. 

 

Question answered (by JP, not the rest of the peanut gallery)

 

Situation resolved.

 

If you spent 1.3 million dollars to buy a special whoozit fum fang diddly diddle and you cannot use it in a special way, then get over it.  

 

Complaining or trying to figure out a way to subvert the system or squeak past the rules just makes you part of the problem.  

 

And YES, this is complaining and trying to subvert the rules.  

[dot 29]

I didn't realize that trying to figure out a solution to the problem means that we are trying to break any rules. The question was asked and JP responded. I guess at that point we can't discuss a solution? Whatever affiliations you have now, in the past or even in the future with any op are irrelevant to this thread. I am also quite sure nobody cares that you would back out of the position based on the fact that the player base of said op was willing to discuss and find solutions to issues.

[nateisthebest05 37]

You say this but didn't he just make a rule change on P* because people started talking about how it shoots just a bit faster then a normal AEG. But we can't talk about getting deferent weapons in the proper class. Hmmmmmmm that sound dumb.