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Blank Fire Adapter Weapons - I don't get it.


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21 replies to this topic

#1
Gunfather6

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Hey Folks,

 

I did a search on the forum and couldn't find this discussed anywhere else so I am hoping to get some insight on this one.  A few members of our local airsoft community have jumped on the Milsim West pipe (read "cult") and are going on about BFA weapons being all the rage.  Smugness of MSW players aside, I don't understand how the game mechanics still function with a BFA weapon.  How does anyone call a hit?  It seems to me that the game would quickly degenerate into a very expensive rendition of cowboys and indians in which everyone plays dress up and makes a lot of noise but nothing is actually accomplished.  

 

P.S. I fully understand blank fire adapters.  I have used them in several training scenarios so no education is necessary.


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#2
Ron Mexico

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Oh boy here we go again with the heated discussion of who's right and who's wrong. I suggest that admin watch this so it doesn't get heated like all the great Facebook discussions did lol.

I'm against real steel in Airsoft, I don't believe that in our world of make believe we need to have the real weaponry on the field. If we can't trust airsofters to call their hits then why should we trust them to use blanks was a question I had seen many times over. I don't think this will happen but there are several videos where people got upset because they shot someone and that someone didn't hear the report of the weapon or whatever.
In our world of make believe we use the strike of the bb to call out hit not someone just pointing a gun at us.

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#3
T-REX

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To answer the actual question instead of arguing about if it should be allowed, it is rather simple. you see a flash coming your way and can tell it was aimed at you, you take the hit. It is more of an honor thing and the ru;les even state it is technically optional to call those hits but it is there to create an atmosphere so by not calling it you are basically just telling the guy hey nice sound effect. i know you are shooting at me but go piss off lol. im not arguing yes or no for blank fire. im answering the original question.


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#4
Gunfather6

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Cowboys and indians. Got it. Thanks.
We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.

#5
Big Candy

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When the concept is bought into (like 99% of MSW attendees do), it is a great tool for immersive purposes, as well as the fact that airsoft guns have a tiny ass range (comparatively speaking), and allowing blank fire promotes people to act in more of a real world manner.  

How many times have you seen a group of guys standing around circle jerking at 400 feet, knowing that they are out of range of everyone's airsoft guns?   The blank fire concept helps solve that issue.  


A "Hi speed Low drag" setup.

Which for me is more like "Slightly Above Average speed, Slightly Less drag"
 


#6
dadandlad

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While trying to not show my obvious ignorance of any safety issues associated with having blank-firing real steel on a field with airsoft guns, I simply don't see how having them adds enough value to a 'SIM event vs. any potential danger that could occur to justify having them there. I've seen a number of the MSW event advertisement and my sons both want to go thinking "Wow! that would be cool!", but admittedly, I would probably avoid the event, partly due to this.


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#7
Gunfather6

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Big Candy I hear you about the lack of range in airsoft but at least there is a projectile that is coming down range that causes pain (albeit not much) instead of just noise.  I just don't see the urgency of getting behind cover to escape the imaginary bullets.  It seems to me that the the whole event would be closer to Civil War reenactment than actual milsim.  

 

The lack of range is an issue with all firearm simulation.  I have used airsoft, simunition and UTM rounds.  They all have their limitations.  For what it is worth airsoft has the most range AND consistency of the three.  I had a woodland scenario last month using UTM rounds.  They are pretty much the top of the line right now for simulations.  I was playing the role of a bad guy who had robbed a bank and escaped into a wooded area.  I shot two of my pursuers before I went down in a hail of "gunfire".  The range is only about 70% of that of airsoft and the rounds drop pretty fast.  You can watch them arc through the air so at range you have to aim about a foot above your target.  I found myself thinking that if I had my AEG I could have easily shot four or five guys before I got hit.   

 

http://www.bluesheep...-munitions-utm/


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#8
T-REX

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lets all just be clear. you do not just show up with a rifle and do it. you must apply and be approved through safety checks. and you have all of your ammo checked. you must have an adaptor which is designed to stop a real round. that gun would explode if you fired a real round. im done here. it adds sound effects and visuals. it is simple. no more dangerous than pyro pea grenades exploding in your hand...just saying. drops mic and walks away


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#9
T-REX

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oh and btw, no i have not attended any events using blank fire. I understand the safety concerns. I also know how the system works. It is not a matter of just walking in off the street and going bang bang. if you do not want it on the field you are on, do not attend the event. it is that easy.


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#10
Big Candy

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While trying to not show my obvious ignorance of any safety issues associated with having blank-firing real steel on a field with airsoft guns, I simply don't see how having them adds enough value to a 'SIM event vs. any potential danger that could occur to justify having them there. I've seen a number of the MSW event advertisement and my sons both want to go thinking "Wow! that would be cool!", but admittedly, I would probably avoid the event, partly due to this.

 

Not to get into a safety argument, but their perceived value is always a matter of opinion.  Just like the propane blasters, smoke grenades, pyro, and all the other elements that are associated with milsim events, it always dependent on the audience they wish to target.  

 

Big Candy I hear you about the lack of range in airsoft but at least there is a projectile that is coming down range that causes pain (albeit not much) instead of just noise.  I just don't see the urgency of getting behind cover to escape the imaginary bullets.  It seems to me that the the whole event would be closer to Civil War reenactment than actual milsim.  

 

The lack of range is an issue with all firearm simulation.  I have used airsoft, simunition and UTM rounds.  They all have their limitations.  For what it is worth airsoft has the most range AND consistency of the three.  I had a woodland scenario last month using UTM rounds.  They are pretty much the top of the line right now for simulations.  I was playing the role of a bad guy who had robbed a bank and escaped into a wooded area.  I shot two of my pursuers before I went down in a hail of "gunfire".  The range is only about 70% of that of airsoft and the rounds drop pretty fast.  You can watch them arc through the air so at range you have to aim about a foot above your target.  I found myself thinking that if I had my AEG I could have easily shot four or five guys before I got hit.   

 

http://www.bluesheep...-munitions-utm/

 

It is just noise, but even after having many many hundreds or thousands of blank round fired at me over the years (both for fun and work), I will still at least acknowledge the fact that something is being fired in my direction.  After that, its pretty much up to the individual on what they do (stand there, laugh, take cover, etc).  But, when you get enough like minded people together, and they all like the idea of blank fire, it really adds some more dimension to the OP.

The nicest difference is between airsoft and simunition is that simunition hurts like fucking hell, and wearing the asinine amount of body protection just sucks.


A "Hi speed Low drag" setup.

Which for me is more like "Slightly Above Average speed, Slightly Less drag"
 


#11
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Like other's mentioned above. Based on an honor system, primarily for effect and simulation experience. There's definitely a divide in players at the moment (safety concerns aside) as to what airsoft gameplay becomes at that point, or lack there-of as there is no use of projectiles. 

 

I can see the appeal, but like many other members of this community I'm sure, I enjoy airsoft for that impact GAMEplay. Just personal preference as to what side of milsim you want to explore really.

 

Until there's some sort of advanced laser tag system to combo with the blank fire adaptors to balance out the theatrical aspects, it feels more like a play to me. Not to mention the affect it will have on getting younger player's into the sport as that barrier to owning a real steal firearm can be considerable to any kid without an active playing parent.



#12
Joe

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If you have to see the flash then what about situations where I, as the target, don't see the flash?  For example, my back is to you or I just plain can't see the shooter but the shooter can see me?  Not trying to nitpick but these situations are more common than many players may realize. 

 

EDIT:  Don't get me wrong.  I think BFA would be neat for reenactments where the outcome was predetermined, i.e., Civil War and other historical battles.  But as competitive as most players tend to be, I think a projectile helps everyone play fair. 


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#13
Aswayze

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I gather by the overall tone of GFs post that he's not really looking for a discussion on this but rather just wants to harrump someone elses system.  (No worries, I do the same all the time)  ;) 

 

I have done a decent split of blank fire and airsoft albiet with most of my blank fire stuff actually being MILES rather than the honor system.  

 

I am sort of on the fence with this one.  I do not like to mix real steel and airsoft as a general rule but I do see the value of limited blank fire use such as what you see at MSW events for one reason above all.  

 

Gunfights are loud...  

 

If there is an engagement 1K away from you, you'll know it when there is real firearms involved.  You're likely not to hear an engagement with airsoft weapons 200m away which means that your overall situational awareness is skewed in a 100% airsoft battle.  

I remember doing a One Shepherd event on a 2800 acre property acting as OPFOR to a Marine ROTC unit near Columbia.  I was tasked as a scout and my partner and I were on rest rotation when I was awoken by the sound of a distant gunfight.  Not only did we know there was a fight, we could also hear that contact was initiated by AKs and that the overall volume of fire and minimal response from M16s meant that the fight was going well so we might as well go back to sleep.   Likewise, when we bounced small units with our FNs, the entire area knew that the scouts had sniffed something out and could begin converging on the area to bail us out.  

 

That added a great deal of depth, I am sure that having some blank fire involved in MSW events contributes in the same way.   Mechanics wise, it's hard to say how well it will work out, I think that has a great deal to do with the quality of players and whether or not they are at the event for an experience or just to "play the game".     With the majority of the "milsim" players now being basically video game wankers or team! team! team! types I do not see blank fire use being a success in main stream milsim until an affordable MILES platform comes out and we can finally heave all of our airsoft weapons into the dust bin.  



#14
Dave

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nah 



#15
Downs

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I think it adds some neat ambiance to the whole deal. I think it's interesting the was MSW does it but I think it'd be better employed by most air soft events as a noise generator. Basically the guy is there to add to the over all immersion into the event not actually be a "player" per se. But that's just me. MILES gear sucks big ones by the way, if they could find a way to slim down that whole system and make it a bit more reliable that would be great.

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#16
Kolt1911

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Guy that runs the local Surplus store out in Leary has a Willy's Jeep with a propane powered M2. I could see that being used, and even tried talking him into building a polar star M2 that also used propane to go boom. I have the design pictured in my head and it really doesn't seem complicated, but is definitely expensive and time consuming. There's better ways to simulate gunshots IMO. Problem herein with using blank fire, simulated explosions, pyro, or anything of the sort is that it isn't too long before someone drops their mix tape and half of Oklahoma is on fire (I've been wanting to use that for weeks now :D). 

I say use imagination and suspension of disbelief to make the immersion. There's something that reaches in and touches you when the slide on your weapon locks back after you shoot six guys and scramble to get a fresh magazine out before their buddies show up. Play the game and let the evolution of the hardware take its course. As technology advances so will airsoft guns and hopefully someday we can do away with charging batteries and the strange and mysterious innerworkings of gearboxes and numbers, and just load mags like a normal gun without having to worry about gas leakage and the like, and just play. Don't worry, be happy. 


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#17
Doc Dodge

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From a pure safety POV.

No BFAs.

No Real Steel Firearms.

No hot smoke

Gas noise makers set up by professionals only and clearly marked HANDS OFF.

No doing anything that makes DOC stop playing and getting out his trauma bag            


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#18
jazzman

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I don't think anyone's arguing that it's safe or unsafe.  I wholeheartedly believe that it is as safe as can be humanly possible with things still going *bang*.  I think the question and potential argument is more about the game mechanics and attitudes of the player in respect to hit-calling. 

 

In my opinion it's just another thing for people who want that.  It's not "right" or "wrong", just different.

 

If you like Chevys, buy a Chevy, not a ford.  Don't be a dick and run around telling people their ford is shit and they are stupid for buying it.

 

If you want to go to a game that lets you shoot blanks, Go right ahead. I'd never tell anyone they are doing it wrong if they are doing something they enjoy that hurts nobody.  *shrug*



#19
TheJP

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We discussed blank fire at the recent CoST Leadership meeting and it will be discussed at the UFS retreat as well. Currently I can tell you that a player will "never" be allowed to use a Blank Fire weapon at an AMS event.

 

Blank Fire will currently only be employed for DAMs or Custom site FRAGOs use by trained and AMS / Range / Site approved staff.

 

As far as having Blank fire weapons be in place during OP play that's still be discussed, but doubtful.


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#20
Gunfighter3316

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Safety is a concern with any training event. Paintball and airsoft both have literally hundreds of projectiles flying in multiple directions and the possibility of an injury is always there. Especially with the trend towards not wearing full face protection in airsoft. Blank fire, if property monitored is no more dangerous than airsoft. However, without some method of accurately scoring hits it's kind of pointless.

 

The military has used MILES gear for decades, and continues to do so for one major reason. Despite it's drawbacks, i.e. bulky, poorly maintained gear, and OPFOR units that like obscure sensors, it is the most realistic method of simulating combat. It does have the issue of not being able to penetrate concealment, but so does airsoft, paintball, and even simunition rounds. There is a company that makes a civilian version of miles gear, http://www.simgun.com/wp-en/, it minimizes cheating and increases range exponentially.

 

I have been trying for some time to start a MILSIM group in my area using this stuff so if there is any interest send me a message here or on FB. Also for the record I am not trying to preach to anyone, and I am not trying to say everyone should switch over. I am just trying to pass on some information and see if there is anyone with similar interest. Thanks.






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