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AscendedJustice

Standard Multicam and UFS at Broken Home 4

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So maybe this is something that has been discussed before, maybe it hasn't. I did a search in the forums and was not finding anything relevant. Feel free to link me to old discussions if I missed it.

 

To get to the point of what I wanted to discuss, this weekend at Broken Home 4 I had a great time. As a member of CoST, an issue that kept coming up however with nearly every engagement (aside from the nearly 2 to 1 player ratio) with the enemy was having to always second guess whether or not the people we saw were green or tan. 

 

I get that standard multicam is a hugely popular camo pattern because it does what its supposed to do. I own a multicam tac shirt myself. The problem is, in the environment for Broken Home, standard Multicam just appears to be green.

 

In real world circumstances this would be great, in a milsim op where sides need to be established and defined, this becomes an issue. With nearly every enemy engagement as CoST we were having to second and triple take on individuals we saw which greatly increased the amount of time we had to respond in engagements.

 

If you were positioned in established CoST or UFS territory this is obviously not an issue because you merely have to shoot back at the people across the line, but when you are moving between positions and scouting enemy positions, engagements in the forest are won and lost in the first few seconds of identification. 

 

After the Op ended, I even spoke with a handful of UFS who chose to wear specifically tan based camo because they felt multicam was not distinguishable as truly tan.

 

Maybe this isn't as much of an issue in other AMS environments, but at Broken Home this was a problem. 

 

TL;DR

Standard Multicam is too green or Broken Home

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Guest Specs

This has been brought up over, and over, and over, and over. 

 

I'll repeat with my usual response. Target identification is a huge part of combat engagements. And if MC looks green to CoST, it does to UFS as well. Camo color itself does not matter. What matters is what camo's are listed under each team's list. Learn those and learn to ID the pattern based on pattern, not color.

 

On another note, please introduce yourself to the forums before anything else. Allows us to get to know you and know where you are coming from.

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I totally agree with Specs that target identification (part of S-A-L-U-T-E) is a reality in combat experience. I myself had the mistake of identifying CoST member in FG ATACs as UFS as it looks similar from a distance. This resulted in a wrong report to uppers and I was made fun of. Time to get me some good Steiners!

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As SPECS has said Target Indentification is always a priority.  On Saturday my squad was on the opposite side of the the airfield from Collvile and saw a group of people on top of a hill.  We couldn't tell if they were enemies or friendlies at our distance.  We cautiously moved up the hill and I moved in front and used my scope to get a better view on what team they were.  They were COST and my squad being UFS decided we liked that hill better.  They ended up having the better ground but if I hadn't had identified them we would have walked into a trap.

 

Moral of the story nice scope or binocluars helps.

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It is always a problem, and as I mentioned when wet, MC looks even more green than usual.  (it darkens a bit).  It was rough this weekend for sure.  However I don't think the answer is to outlaw MC or switch MC to green camo... but I guess we are all at the mercy of AMS on what will really happen.

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I'm with Specs and yes you have to pay attention but I will say that if Multicam is pulled from the TAN/UFS side we are screwed as almost all the events take place in forested environments. Not really far to one side to be out camoed at almost all events but Copperhead.

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This has been brought up over, and over, and over, and over. 

 

I'll repeat with my usual response. Target identification is a huge part of combat engagements. And if MC looks green to CoST, it does to UFS as well. Camo color itself does not matter. What matters is what camo's are listed under each team's list. Learn those and learn to ID the pattern based on pattern, not color.

 

On another note, please introduce yourself to the forums before anything else. Allows us to get to know you and know where you are coming from.

 

 

Im new to the forums, so apologies if I did not follow the usual procedure for introductions. Is there a specific thread that I need to post in dedicated to introductions?

 

And to address some of your points if something is consistently being brought up as an issue, as you mentioned yourself, then in any analytical assessment, it by nature becomes a red flag. If there was equally as much vocalized frustration coming from UFS about not being able to identify CoST because of a preferred camo pattern, like US Woodland then I would say that this is a non-issue, (and I dont have enough knowledge to make that claim) but I doubt it. 

 

If the camo in question was not widely used like the one MEERKATMOGS mentioned, then I could also see how this might be a non-issue, but when (and this is a conservative estimate) >50% of UFS are wearing Multicam, this would seem to be cause for concern. 

 

To address your point about pattern recognition over color recognition: based on guidelines Im assuming that UFS and CoST acceptable camos are determined not just by pattern, but by color as well. If that is the case, then to say that pattern recognition is priority really only addresses half the problem. By that logic I should be able to wear Multicam tropic and be identifiable as UFS.

 

With regards to fellow UFS seeing MC as green as well, that again only addresses half the problem. On either side there presents difficulty. With CoST I can easily identify friendlies, but have trouble identifying foe. With UFS the issue is difficulty in identifying friendlies but easy identification of foes. Both present issues, but I believe one provides an advantage more-so than a disadvantage.

 

Most of the engagements Im referring to that made target identification difficult were within 45 meters, so Im not talking about spotting enemies out to 100+meters as well. 

 

Again the TL:DR version

 

If people are always complaining about MC then there is a likelihood of an advantage being presented. If that is the case then an advantage should be stated as being and intended part of the simulation, and if it is not intended, then it needs to be reconciled. To be blunt I would hope that MC wasn't simply acceptable because of its popularity. With Multicam Arid and Multicam tropic being available color's for the pattern, it would seems that the pattern is not whats in question. 

 

To clarify, Im ultimately not particularly invested in it. It was just something that had been mentioned and something I noticed personally and I thought Id bring it up in the forum for discussion. If it seems like Im overthinking things, then well that's just the way I am. haha I trust that the AMS staff do whats in the best interest of everyone involved.

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This has been brought up over, and over, and over, and over. 

 

I'll repeat with my usual response. Target identification is a huge part of combat engagements. And if MC looks green to CoST, it does to UFS as well. Camo color itself does not matter. What matters is what camo's are listed under each team's list. Learn those and learn to ID the pattern based on pattern, not color.

 

On another note, please introduce yourself to the forums before anything else. Allows us to get to know you and know where you are coming from.

 

 

Made the mistake of posting the same thing twice myself, sorry about that.

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I'm with Specs and yes you have to pay attention but I will say that if Multicam is pulled from the TAN/UFS side we are screwed as almost all the events take place in forested environments. Not really far to one side to be out camoed at almost all events but Copperhead.

 

So I guess an interesting question here would be, if AMS moved to a few more desert like environments, would multicam be allowable for CoST rather than UFS seeing as how most CoST camo's would stick out like a sore thumb in a desert environments? 

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Guest Specs

To clarify, Im ultimately not particularly invested in it. It was just something that had been mentioned and something I noticed personally and I thought Id bring it up in the forum for discussion. If it seems like Im overthinking things, then well that's just the way I am. haha I trust that the AMS staff do whats in the best interest of everyone involved.

Yup there should be a player introductions thread you can post under. 

 

As for answering your concerns, it comes down to giving both sides an option that works in both arid and wooded regions to alleviate unfairness entirely. As others stated above, MC is a great all around pattern. Are there others we could choose from under UFS? Sure. If we wanted to stick out like beacons among the trees. Desert DPM, MC arid, AOR1, etc. are all far too tan and light in tone to match the majority of AMS event locations. CoST has similar options such as ATACS which can be quite tan heavy at times. At this time most AMS events are in the midwest or wooded environments, and those of us that can't travel to desert AO events, wouldn't have an option otherwise.

 

While patterns might be chosen originally as either a green or tan base, I would encourage any and all players to look beyond that, and see the shapes and consistency of the pattern. Does that take extra effort on the players part? Sure. Is it impossible? No. 

 

You might see MC as an unfair advantage in it's like-ness to green. But as a UFS member, I see it as a double edged sword, in that everyone then appears as an enemy. Where are my allies around me? That is also a challenge from our side. 

 

To wrap up my end of the argument, by seeing pattern, and not color, you help to alleviate all the confusion. If you have problems ID'ing friend from foe, create a mechanism for your team to better separate yourselves from those around you. There's a reason many of us UFS guys will mark our backs with brightly colored tape.

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Here is the easiest way to look at it.

Both factions need a base camo pattern.

UFS - tan - multicam - because like it or not.... its one of the most popular and readily available patterns in the world.

COST - green - M81 - probably about the 2nd most prevalent pattern in the world... and its sure as hell not tan.

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I must be the only one on the field that can tell the difference between MC and green. In the past I have had troops dive into the grass just to have me yell at them to get up because the troops in front of them are wearing multicam lol. This year I tried to use it to my advantage again and I stalled 3 members of cost behind Colleville on Sunday by acting like I thought that I was one of them. It worked in my behalf and I was able to move my defenses and I didn't get shot oh yeah and I was able to direct a squad after them lol.

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Here is the easiest way to look at it.

 

Both factions need a base camo pattern.

 

UFS - tan - multicam - because like it or not.... its one of the most popular and readily available patterns in the world.

 

COST - green - M81 - probably about the 2nd most prevalent pattern in the world... and its sure as hell not tan.

 

Pretty much this.  Thread over.

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I heard one of the AMS Higher ups, in response to Evike Matt complaining about target acquisition, say that if he had it his way it would be Coyote and DCU VS Olive/Ranger Green and M81. So it's not like AMS isn't acutely aware of the situation, they just feel like if they get rid of the most "Popular" camo pattern, it will drop their numbers, because a lot of toolbags that wear multicam will refuse to wear anything else, because let's face it, Airsofters are a bunch of manchildren who WILL complain if they don't get their way.

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I've honestly never had a problem confusing multicam with BDUs in the woods, given normal daylight.  I also have 20/15 vision in both eyes, so draw your own conclusion there.  I wish there were more stringent rules regarding gear colors... I think that leads to a lot of oopsies on the field.  I saw a picture of someone on CoST wearing a full tan vest with a large tan backpack and tan gloves and a tan rifle.. and a green tshirt.  Since most of what people will see is the chest, he didn't leave much opportunity for ready identification.  I would say constrict the gear coloring first, then consider uniform camouflage restrictions (or just get rid of the ambiguous ones).

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