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reecedoan

Op Copperhead UHaul Shenanigans

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Neither will a Deuce and a half or an old Willie's Jeep or an old M151 MUTT.  Even the soft back HMMWVs won't stop 5.56.  Typical wheeled vehicles didn't start stopping any kind of significant small arms ammo till the hardbacked HMMWVs and even that was hit or miss until the Up Armored variants started to come along.  Heck it wasn't until recently that cargo trucks started getting purpose built armor I.E the USMC MTVR and the Army's FMTVs. Prior to that deuce and a half and 5 ton trucks were all field created armor by guys with torches and welders. 

Unless people are going to start putting uparmored HMMWVs and M113 APCs on the field there's going to have to be concessions made.  Throw some camo net on a Uhaul and in real life bolt steel plates into the cargo compartment.  Bam insta-APC.

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Instant paintball tank...  

 

The point is, just like players do not have to be up armored/bullet proof, neither do trucks.   4

 

There are plenty of games where real trucks do not have to be turned into paintball tanks, it is just a matter of deciding to be milsim instead of just "playing the game"

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"Unless people are going to start putting uparmored HMMWVs and M113 APCs on the field there's going to have to be concessions made"

There have been people who've put armored vehicles on the field for AMS games and the series preceding as well. Here is a prime example:
5593345397_ebd7b48d73.jpg
That's a Russian BTR40 Armored scout car, parked next to a GAZ69 and a UAZ469- a wicked little truck that you can stuff people like sardines into. This picture was TAKEN AT DDAP.

Or this little guy, a British Ferret Armored Car. A two man crew but it mounts an airsoft M240 in the turret- it is a zippy little thing that is ideal for use at a broken home type event. This picture is also at DDAY.
5587443164_17f9318170.jpg


Both of these guys play airsoft. They've both had these vehicles at events at DDAY, including MSE/AMS events. They've both stopped because they do not have any advantage over a pickup truck or uhaul. These vehicles are cramped, hot, difficult to see out of because they are armored. And the rules currently offer them no incentive to drag these or any of the other vehicles they own out to a game.

What I would like to see rule wise is a change from "transport" and "gun truck" to armored vs. not armored. Look at each of the vehicles posted in this thread- is there a single one that would not clearly fit into either category? That eliminates a lot of headache for admins because so-and-so shot out of a truck that looked like a transport but was a gun truck (here is an entire thread on how convoluted the current ruleset is once you're in the fight) and all the rules-lawyering that goes with it. And the rules regarding it can be deceptively simple too-rockets kill both, small arms doesn't kill armored vehicles. Because it always gets brought up don't be a dumbass and try to grenade a truck. Boom.

Another idea put out earlier that got glossed over and that I think is a marvelous idea is to make POVs strictly company assets- Green commander needs troops at this place asap he can assign two vehicles from the motor pool to transport, and maybe an armored one for convoy protection. If you really want to do it right you have dismounts clear the road up to the drop point, but that is a discussion for another time. That is a lot more milsim than a single squad screaming all over the battlefield in their Jeep wrangler, or whatever it is supposed to stand in as.

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I have not made time to write up my AAR after using my M151 at Broken home this year.  That said, this is it in a nut shell.

 

Mobility, and survivability are two separate issues.

 

My "jeep" was strictly a mobility asset in our planning/use.  And it did this very well.

Military Cargo trucks are also mobility assets. They move the goods and the asses across the field quickly and without breaking the stuff or tiring the soldier.

 

Survivable vehicles are the classic armored whatever (pick your favorite)  Armored things are designed to survive a certain threat.

 

I personally don't care how, exactly, we simulate our lack of uber-expensive military hardware... what I would like to see is a permissive environment where trucks get used like trucks.... to provide mobility. 

If they get used in "poor life choice" areas then it gets killed.

 

Survivable (ie. armored) vehicles are a whole different ball of wax.  Usually they have some tradeoff, the biggest being weight, and restricted visibility.  Whatever the answer may be, the current rules are a kill joy, because a real armored vehicle is not as capable as a pickup truck with sheet metal screwed over the windows.

 

The current rule system is blending  everything together, and that is where many of our problems lay. 

 

 

Several countries still use the M151.... that is where many of the hard to find parts are still being manufactured. 

Good thing too!

They also use Toyota pickups, not because they are better but because they are cheap.

For the kind of fight at AMS, toyota pickup trucks are not good options.  We do have a choice in what we bring.  We just need to pick the right option FOR US, not for Pakistan or, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, or any other real country.

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Swayze if you can find something that will stop actual .556 rounds, I want to buy it. 5.56 on the other hand... ;) 

How much does a dozer chassis run? You could maybe build a tracked armored vehicle out of that. 

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Just a couple cents from someone who was on UFS and did multiple runs in the Uhaul: 

 

It was a giant white and orange target. It got killed constantly. It was unarmed. We all died... a lot, and had to turn around and respawn before we even made it to our objectives. I fail to see how that is unrealistic. My assumption, from an immersion/LARPy standpoint, would be that we were paratroopers, or something, who requisitioned/stole that vehicle. In practice, we really used it less for assaults and more for hauling casualties back from respawn to the front lines to get them back to their units.

 

Also, for the record, I spent much of my first tour in Iraq with the 101st Airborne doing convoy security in Mosul for other units. Our vehicles consisted of soft humvees, soft LMTVs, and little white Nissan and Toyota SUVs and pickups. We took the canvas doors off of the tactical vehicles, because they offered zero protection and hindered visibility, and put sandbags and hillbilly scrap armor on the backs. After a while, we realized that there was no real advantage to being in a tactical vehicle over a Nissan or Toyota. In fact, it was kind of preferable to be in the civvie vehicles on a convoy, because you were small, fast, and had A/C. Bear in mind that this was in 2003, when we were in such a state that we didn't even have enough SAPI plates for everyone, so we took turns with the spares, and whoever was a gunner on a convoy always got a set. Some of our guys had Vietnam era flak vests, too. 

 

But enough of that. I am not one to complain in an AAR without a solution to offer. Here is a rule suggestion: 

 

There are two types of vehicles. NTVs, and Military.

 

An NTV is a Non-Tactical-Vehicle. This includes cars, pickups, SUVs, and civilian trucks/vans. An NTV is a vehicle that has been pressed into military service out of necessity, but was not designed for the purpose. An NTV is destroyed by a single rocket hit from any approved launcher, and all crew and passengers are killed in the explosion. A red flag signifies the destruction of the vehicle.

 

A Military vehicle is any vehicle that was made for military use, or significantly retrofitted/armored for service in battle. A Military vehicle is disabled for five minutes if hit by a single rocket from any approved launcher, but the crew and passengers are unharmed. A white flag signifies the vehicle is disabled. A second rocket hit from an approved launcher destroys the military vehicle, and kills any crew and passengers still inside. A red flag signifies the destruction of the vehicle. If the military vehicle is not hit a second time within five minutes of the first hit, it returns to action, and is considered fully operational/"good as new".  

 

These rules give a significant advantage to anyone with a REAL military vehicle, or to anyone who has put a lot of time and effort into armoring up their milsim vehicle/building turrets etc..., without completely excluding civilian vehicles.

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