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Hey guys.  The ECR Skunk-works wants to start the transformation process of its fleet and build new vehicles (real armored IFV and APC) for future events AMS and others.

 

I know you guys are busy.  but....

 

Can you guys try to get a the new POV rules together soon for next year.

 

It takes months and months of planning and fabrication to prepare vehicles, and the vehicles for BH4 are already being planned.  We want to make sure they are 100% rule abiding before we start several months of fabrication and spend thousands of dollars on steel.

 

before Mike buys a Russian BTR only to be told later that it is only a transport better suited for a truck..

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Hey guys.  The ECR Skunk-works wants to start the transformation process of its fleet and build new vehicles (real armored IFV and APC) for future events AMS and others.

 

I know you guys are busy.  but....

 

Can you guys try to get a the new POV rules together soon for next year.

 

It takes months and months of planning and fabrication to prepare vehicles, and the vehicles for BH4 are already being planned.  We want to make sure they are 100% rule abiding before we start several months of fabrication and spend thousands of dollars on steel.

 

before Mike buys a Russian BTR only to be told later that it is only a transport better suited for a truck..

 

We will work on it ASAP, still finishing up busy work from OBH3.

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While you are at it, don't forget the vehicles that are already available on the field, for most AMS events.

 

2.5 ton trucks are around at DDAY (Me and Swayze own really nice ones too) but the current rules make people think that the truck can be used as an APC... which never works!  I've been dropping people off for years now, and it NEVER works out for very long.

3422391577_83505dec7d_z.jpg

Most players can't even get into or out of them quick enough think about a "combat drop" yet they all want to do it.

 

Actual military vehicles rarely get brought back twice to Broken Home.  I a MV nut, and would notice.

-Mechanical Mule

-Dodge weapons carrier

-M37 Powerwagon

Are a few that I have not seen return for a second game.    Some don't even make it down in the first place.

For example I have not brought my M151A2 to the event yet because... well, because there was a not a good reason to do so.  Yet.

Why take up a (armored) vehicle slot with an expensive cargo truck?

9992054213_a3aec5073d_z.jpg

 

I do however take it to work occasionally B)

 

And lets not even talk about actual armored vehicles.  You know, the ones with bad visibility, real offroad performance, and actual armor, filled with hot smells fumes and BO.

 

MK 2-3 Ferret.  Completely viable armored car, with a turret.  Wicked cool little vehicle.

4761724827_a14424d310_z.jpg

Nah, why bother, its not as good at killing people in the church windows as a Chevy Suburban with the A/C cranked up, lots of nice big windows to look through, and a big roomy turrect on top.

(Note: there is a Ferret in the area, and the owner likes to play airsoft)

 

How about these big boys? 

The FV-432 "Trojans," owned by DDAY.  Players love 'em, so much that they are always getting broken from over use.

I've helped out with the work on them many times.

5575088369_a05986db33_b.jpg  But DDAY is not the only place that owns toys like these. 

As an owner, why bother.  The nerf round that disables the Ford pickup truck, also disables this beast (and maybe rightly so, FV-432s are not really that good in the real world) 

The point, however, is as long as they are both held to the same level, a pickup with plywood bolted to the sides is a better troop transport than this tracked, noisy, smelly, hot, can't-see-out-of, steel box.

 

Well, what about the real world version of a Pickup-truck with armor?

A BTR-40 perhaps?  Ope top, rear doors, pretty good visibility for the driver through glass.

4008334785_6e8f621d91_z.jpg?zz=1

This "little" guy has been to events, and the crew had a lot of fun with it... but next year, decided not to bother.  Transport on a trailer is pricy from St Louis, and maintenance for use adds up.  Instead its easier on the wallet and in man points from the wife, to use a civy truck.

 

There is a M114 being built into a running vehicle at DDAY... but like all armor, when buttoned up it is not as useful as a Baja-bug wrapped in plexiglass.  And with the turrets open and the weapons manned, the crew can get shot, just like everyone else in a truck. 

9724087389_2299450f4f_z.jpg

On top of that you have to borrow it from somebody else.  Under the current rules, if I was coming in from afar, I would just bring my own truck.  :rolleyes:

 

 

This event has grown wildly since its inception.  Growing pains are expected... and changes should follow.

 

I am not looking for uber-realistic rules. Those rules are just complicated messes at events this size.

But we should be encouraging vehicle owners and builders to bring the right vehicles for the job.

 

I have nothing against home-built armored trucks.  It gets them into the hands of people who could not afford that much steel (like me)

 

In my opinion, Glass, should not count as armor.  Bullets eventually go through glass... and the first one turns the whole sheet opaque. (ask me how I know) 

We can agree that driver visibility, and safety trump this, but only as far as needed.

I'm not recommending this for realism sake, I'm recommending this because that is how you get people to bring actual vehicles, or make vehicles that function more realistically.

 

Making the armored vehicles MORE armored, or making the crew magically immune to fire is not the answer.  I've seen it done and it always leads to poor use.

Making unarmored vehicles play as soft skinned vehicles places emphasis on armor.   Whether that armor is simulated with wood, actual steel, or is a real armored vehicle it doesn't matter in the game.

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Ummmm is there a point to this story or are you just bragging about all the cool toys you have?

 

Last I checked most people cant afford a 100,000 piece of equipment but can get 5&7 ton trucks for cheap, but where the heck would we put it for 360 days out of the year? LOL

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Unfortunately I don't own any of the cool toys.  Just a jeep and a deuce.  Both pretty cheap to acquire.

Lets not talk about what I have... my trucks come down for BH, every chance I get.  They are offered free of charge to Frosty and JP. where ever they need them.

 

Instead lets talk about the crazy people.  The ones who do own expensive toys, and who like to use them.

I do know lots of people who own the "good stuff."  Many of them play airsoft.  All of them drive their vehicles, and cart them all over the country.

 

None of them bring their vehicles to airsoft games.

 

MY POINT, is the current rules offer no incentive for people to bring real military vehicles.  Because the current system clearly caters to "paintball tanks" instead.  The current rules don't even temp people to do a decent vismod, it just hopes that people will do it for coolness sake.

The DDAY field offers something that few fields in the entire country have.  It offers lots of space, covered in drivable roads and trails. 

 

I see this field wasted every year by several events both airsoft and paintball, who fail to see the potential of the field. 

The DDAY paintball guys have a decade of events on Broken home.  Look at the evolution of their vehicles.... I sincerely hope that AMS avoids the mistakes made by the paintball group.

 

A tank from last year, that is coming back this year.  Very effective at what it does.

It is clearly marked, and follows the rules to a Tee.

 

D_Day6_08_815_jpeg.jpg

 

 

A tank from from 2008 (I believe)

SANY3082.JPG

 

There were also several real WWII halftracks, a White Scout car, and various other vismods on the field that year.

 

All of those people stopped working a good looking vehicles when they realized that a hacked up Astro Van was their competition, and that the Van was better at shooting the other team!!

Few people stopped playing altogether, instead they changed their designs to match the more effective vehicles.

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Note: I'm not trying to be an ass.  Nor am I trying to predict the future.

 

Merely commenting on the past that I have been a part of, and the present in which I enjoy partaking.

 

I don't have to agree completely with everything done here, but I do support it as best I can, regardless. 

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He has a point, I mean if nothing else those look AWESOME! The Redneck Express is cool, (and no offense guys right?) but if we had more actual military armored vehicles it would take the game to a new level.

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Still looking for an excuse to buy an old HMMWV...

would a howitzer count as a POV or antitank weapon?

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Not gonna lie. TLDR.

That's OK, I don't bother to read much on this site, either.

 

Though I try to have the good graces to keep it to myself.

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Not gonna lie. TLDR.

 

 

I wish there was a "dislike" button to go along with the "like" button on these forums.

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Not gonna lie. TLDR.

 

Thank you for that insightful post and contribution to this thread! 

 

 

CoST, UFS, and AMS all had a discussion about vehicles and we came up with a few ideas.  What we suggested was 4 corner labeling, no portholes, POV ruleset that the driver (who will be the only driver) will sign and adhere by least he gets bumped from the field, increase in carried rockets (and decrease in blast radius to avoid the massive squad kills from a nerf football), and some other stuff I can't remember atm.  I don't think we talked about support vs assault vehicles.

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I was not intending to be a dick. My apologies. I went back and read the post. What was the relevance to the thread? Making povs be actual military use vehicles?

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Discontent that 99% of the community doesn't have milspec vehicles and so favoritism is shown towards the "suburban assault vehicle" types, I suppose.  I see where Stagg is coming from, but I can tell surely assume that EFPs and IEDs and AT and the like didn't exist we would be rocking all over the world with soft shell humvees still.  There are enough issues with the AT gunners already without requiring a different rocket to take them out, or making glass pane BB hits count (?).

 

Military vehicles, like the helicopter, aren't particularly useful on the field but everyone likes the loud noises and track grindings and pew pew aspect.  I think some of the APCs at DDAY would have seen more field time but they were broke down or something to that effect.  I think UFS had a mission with one?

 

So, mil vehicles are cool and fun as props but if I had to choose between a 8 seater suburban or a M113 to get dudes from point A to point B as fast as possible...

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The point Stagg is making, very well I might add, is that POV rules lead to POV rules lawyering which leads to paintball tanks.  

 

Like this one: 

 

4093D66C-7825-47EC-BD09-C72B90A04F87-485

 

The trend with POV use at events is quite predictable.  Build up a system based upon rules that allow unarmored things to be armored and you get paintball tanks.   Why would anyone bother to bring a real armored vehicle if the net result is that it's the same as a civilian unarmored one?  

 

Why should the MANY of us who own real military vehicles bring them out when again there is no physical gain from doing so?   Cost is the same at registration, capabilities are greater obviously but not when we do things like saying that POVs have to remain on the roadways, at that point, why even bother taking a 4x4 when we can take a conversion van with rear air and a bigger sliding door?

 

People will build to the rules.  Build rules for paintball tanks and you will get paintball tanks.  I am not knocking those who do so, far from it!  I saw some very practical vehicles out there that were quite well adapted to the environment they were intended for.

 

If this is the direction the community wants to go then far be it from me to tell you otherwise.   

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The point Stagg is making, very well I might add, is that POV rules lead to POV rules lawyering which leads to paintball tanks.

 

Like this one:

 

4093D66C-7825-47EC-BD09-C72B90A04F87-485

 

The trend with POV use at events is quite predictable. Build up a system based upon rules that allow unarmored things to be armored and you get paintball tanks. Why would anyone bother to bring a real armored vehicle if the net result is that it's the same as a civilian unarmored one?

 

Why should the MANY of us who own real military vehicles bring them out when again there is no physical gain from doing so? Cost is the same at registration, capabilities are greater obviously but not when we do things like saying that POVs have to remain on the roadways, at that point, why even bother taking a 4x4 when we can take a conversion van with rear air and a bigger sliding door?

 

People will build to the rules. Build rules for paintball tanks and you will get paintball tanks. I am not knocking those who do so, far from it! I saw some very practical vehicles out there that were quite well adapted to the environment they were intended for.

 

If this is the direction the community wants to go then far be it from me to tell you otherwise.

Its just being realistic, thats all it is.

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I dont understand the reference to "unarmored things being armored". The povs were all classified as technicals. Technicals can be popped with basically any rocket or grenade system.

 

When our team was training for OBH using ghe truck, we planned on making into the fight, getting bombarded with rockets, then disembarking into the fight. What happened was absolutely no resistance by CoST whatsoever. The entire weekend we had two situations where a HWS fired at us, and both times the rocket went about ten feet and ate dirt.

 

In the past, ECR and the "murder vans" (as they were called in another thread) have been mostly on CoST, and the pov rules didn't seem to be a problem. UFS adapted, and pushed every squad to have a HWS. This negated the efficiency of a pov, because they lost the ability to move about the field freely . This evened the playing field.

 

My frustration comes from this: my team has invested a lot of money (and not nearly as much as ECR) in a vehicle that has been used at every AMS event that allows vehicle and has not been a problem. But it seems that because CoST came unprepared and got beat, we have to nerf the trucks. From an owners standpoint its crappy.

 

And in response to the fact that vehicles will be built to the rules, you're damn right. You build your gun to the rules don't you? You try to get every last fps you can and still chrono. Every little bit of rps and still make the rules. Understand that trying to create the most effective vehicle according to the rules is not rule lawyering. It is playing by the rules.

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I assume that you have never driven past a "normal" truck that has been sprayed with gunfire?   I have and I promise you that the people that were inside did not jump out and do anything...

 

Unarmored things do not stand up to rifle fire.

 

Many events choose to say that an unarmored vehicle provides no protection to the crew.  I.E. you are sitting there looking out your window like a kid on a road trip and bbs bounce off, you take the hit because YOU WOULD BE HIT.  

 

Does that make POVs useless?  No, not at all, it just makes you use trucks like trucks should be used in combat.   As logistical transports, light scouts etc, non-direct combat roles.  Guess what else it does, it encourages vehicles to be stripped down, low profile vehicles MUCH more like what people in actual combat actually use.   ECRs buggy is a good example of this.  With no "my windshield is made of magic thorium diamond glass" rules, vehicles like that one start to see an advantage.  The crew can see out, fire out, it can sneak, it has better mobility etc.   All the sudden military trucks can actually fit into the equation since again, they are built to the rules of real combat and are frequently stripped down trading crew visibility and profile for weather (and by the current rules BB) protection.  

 

What about armored vehicles?  Now they actually have a place on the battlefield.  Guys who want to build up an armored gun truck with steel armor can do so.  You can look at attracting out some of the other armored vehicle owners that attend other events but generally not the AMS ones.    You just build the rules to again say that what you build is what you build not what you are representing.   Plywood armor?  That stops civilians throwing stones at you but you can forget rifle fire.  1/4 inch steel?  Not much, 3/8 we are looking at some rifle protection but not much against a GPMG.  1/2 inch and you can start to not worry so much about small arms fire but you're sausage if your are hit with a rocket etc.  

 

In direct reponse to: "And in response to the fact that vehicles will be built to the rules, you're damn right. You build your gun to the rules don't you?"

 

No, I do not.  I would hope that most milsim players do not either.  I build things to the INTENT of the rule.   I intend to replicate the rifle of a soldier not a magic space marine with a 400 round windy mag and a paintball gun trigger.    Build TO the rules and you are a jackass, build to the intent of the rules and you are my brother.  

 

I understand having spent a lot of money on the current rule set and getting used to the way things currently are but for the cost of a pack of sawzall blades you can be chopped and dropped much more like a REAL technical and just learn to fight with trucks the right way. 

 

In the end it comes down to what you want the future to look like.    Paintball tanks or military vehicles and/or vismods.  

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So it seems to me that your argument is that all pov's should have the glass knocked out, and stripped to the bone, or should be an abrams tank? This is the most elitist thing I can think of. Our vehicle has been outfitted to function as a gun truck, not a simple transport.

 

10258261_583070831792020_142251964574684

 

That is not a paintball tank. It is a gun truck that can be dropped by any standard launcher, even rifle mounted.

 

So according to your argument this would not stand up to small arms fire. Correct, it wouldn't. How do you admin that? How do you incorporate being able to drop a technical with small arms fire? You have two choices. Assume that this vehicle has enough armor to withstand small arms, or give it the same hit rules we have. 1 hit from a bb, its dead.

 

AMS had a great rule to try to combat this and meet in the middle. If you were going to shoot from inside the vehicle, then all windows in the vehicle had to be lowered, besides the driver's for safety reasons. This makes the crew inside much more squishy, and does not allow the vehicle to have "magic thorium diamond glass". This bridges the gap between the two.

 

If you have an actual solution to the problem that you are stating than please state it. I think the point of this post is to talk about the rules going forward. You mentioned other event's rules. Share them. I think all of us would like to know if there is a better system out there.

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Elitist?  If you choose to look at it that way than so be it.   I shall wear that as a badge of honor.  

 

THAT is exactly a paintball tank.   Glass is not bullet proof, suburban doors are not bullet proof.   It does not look like a gun truck, it does not act like a gun truck.   The guys who took the time to make an uparmored vismod Dodge truck with the sloping armor like what you see on the real BTR in the previous pictures made a gun truck.  The guys who made the uparmored gun jeep made a gun truck.   What you have is at best a troop transport, at worst a paintball tank that is functionally no different than the ones we posted as examples of paintball tanks.   Both the well done Dodge and the well done jeep are at a disadvantage rules wise to your paintball tank so the rules are currently favoring non-military or military like vehicles.  

 

It is a simple matter of direction you want to see the event progressing.  You do not build to what you currently have, you build to what you want to see.  

 

Complete vehicle rules from East Wind (Used by others as well):

 

Vehicles

Vehicles will be in use at East Wind. Unless a vehicle is actually armored no vehicle will be treated as a "tank."

Trucks are trucks and trucks are NOT combat vehicles in the real world for a very good reason. If a truck is hit in the engine compartment area with enough AEG fire it is considered destroyed. A truck kill of this type destroys the truck but not the occupants unless they have otherwise been hit. Please make an effort to not overshoot trucks as AEG fire can damage radiators and of course cause a multiplicity of dents and dings. Occupants of trucks are not really protected in any way by the vehicle they are riding in. Hits on or about the passenger compartment near occupants will be treated as hits by those inside. The driver or commander of the vehicle will assess casualties based on the fire taken. If an occupant is actually hit by a BB - that is obviously a hit. Recognize that with the noise and bouncing of riding in trucks it may be hard for occupants of a vehicle to recognize that they are being "hit" so in the event someone does not notice your rounds impacting contact your higher commanders and they will get an admin radio message over to the opposing side and let the vehicle occupants know. A hit from a Nerf round on a truck kills the truck and all occupants inside with no medic respawns, no opportunity to take POWs, no searching of the burnt out corpses for documents and no medevac option. Again, vehicle operators may not notice a hit from a Nerf, so if you hit a vehicle don your dead rag (to avoid being shot, not because YOU are dead) and attempt to signal the crew to let them know you hit them. Failing that; be prepared to make a radio call if they do not notice you.

Armored vehicles must be legitimate armored vehicles not cardboard taped to the side of a golf cart. As armored vehicles vary a great deal in capability individual kill rules will vary depending on the particular armored vehicle in question. Determinations will be made at the event and all parties will be informed on kill rules in the event briefing. Obviously a Ferret is much easier to kill than a Chieftain main battle tank and our rules will reflect that. (yes, both Ferrets and Chieftains are available on the civilian market and may find their way to East Wind). Likewise, anti-armor weapons vary a great deal in capability as well. A TOW missile impacting on the frontal armor of a BRDM makes quite a bit bigger mess than a M203 round impacting on the front of a T-72. Again, system capabilities will be discussed on site.

 

Vehicle Destruction and Respawn

Destroyed vehicles will display a large red flag denoting they are out of action. Vehicles killed at East Wind must return via the most direct route to their respective main bases where they remain killed for a period of 6 hours during which time they may not be used for any non-emergency use. Keep that in mind when you decide to go cowboy and take the food delivery truck on a rat patrol mission against a squad of infantry. Destroyed vehicles may take dead players back to camp with them but may not transport live players for any non-emergency reason.

 

 

 

 

Vehicle Operation

Only those qualified by event staff and allowed via vehicle owner's permission are to operate vehicles at East Wind. When traveling on established trails speeds should be kept reasonable for conditions in some locations reasonable may be 4 mph in others perhaps as high as 20mph. When operating off of established roads and trails vehicles should not exceed 10 MPH regardless of terrain. At all times it is the responsibility of the vehicle operator to insure safe operation. Unsafe vehicle operation will result in revocation of driving privileges at the event.

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Hey Sheepdog. I hate to cover all this again because its been said 100 times on here. But...

 

I was with CoST 1st platoon. On the weekend we had somewhere in the neighborhood of ~20 POV kills(mostly ECR). The problem for me and I believe most everyone else was not the "build" of the trucks, but their use. I dont believe that rifleman should have an easy time killing the crew of a POV because why even run as a HWS then? The issue we had was once vehicles were struck with AT some crews would continue to fire from the vehicle instead of "bleeding out" or dismounting. Imagine the frustration from hitting a vehicle with a rocket only to have the crew sit there and fire support weapons from two inch gun ports. Im sorry youre having to change your vehicles, you guys showed nothing but respect and sportmanship, including going out of your way to miss our roadblock on your way back to spawn so we wouldn't have to take it down. Thats a class act!

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I was unaware that people were not calling hits on the vehicles. I know that we did have one person set a grenade on the hood during the swarm on the airfield. Our driver looked at him and told him sorry it doesn't count. This was the only time that we had a close call. This was our first time running a POV at an event, and our team tries to exemplify following the rules, being good sportsmen, and playing the game the way it should be played. I'm glad that you didn't have an issue with our truck in particular.

 

I am not trying to fight with anybody on these forums. I do however find that comparing Eastwind's rules to OBH's rules to me is like apples and oranges. If this is the way AMS decides to take the rules than we will do whatever we need to do to to comply with those rules.

 

Aswayze, we can agree to disagree. I see your point, and I don't agree with it. I think that it is a flawed concept in a game of pretend.

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This is a great thread, please keep the discussion going.

 

But let me make it perfectly clear...

 

We will be re-writing all the PoV rules and setting a Vehicle "template" for troop carriers and assault vehicles. We will do our best to find the middle ground where properly deployed and utilized vehicles can determine the outcome of a fight but not be unstoppable tractors of death.

 

Yes some PoVs I saw at OBH3 will have to be modified, but we will not allow a perverted evolution or PoV rule lawyering. This event give us a huge learning curve in terms of PoV usage and with OBH4 I am confident will we see them in a much better fashion, cosmetically and game play wise.

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Sounds good to me.

 

Just had to share a cool moment from Sunday.

Gun trucks were mentioned in another thread, and to make a it tie in here.

Yesterday, on I-44 just east of Springfield MO, I saw the reproduced, 5-ton gun truck  "The Untouchable" driving past.

 

Untouchable.jpg

 

 

Complete with guns and everything.  Looked pretty F***ing cool.

 

The original was a Vietnam convoy escort truck.

If I remember from another forum, the guy in Texas that built it spent 7000 dollars on the vehicle and box... and then $16,000 on the guns, radios, and other loot inside :o

Thank goodness that airsoft guns are cheaper!

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