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AMS Forums set to ARCHIVE MODE (POSTING DISABLED). These forums will be used for historical reference, otherwise you can find the AMS event pages located on Facebook.
Hack

OBH Comm Matrix

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Thanks Hack! Looking forward to getting to getting things programmed and tested a tad earlier this OP. 

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Aren't we supposed to be broken down via Company and Platoon level now?  How does this matrix dovetail with that information?

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Plan on this changing slightly for UFS, as we are Company level now. Be patient, I'm sure Command will disseminate that information as it is available.

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I'm the RTO for my team, need to ensure we're all square and good to go with the correct frequencies and info.  I want to make sure we don't have the same confusion we had at ESR.

 

Thanks.

 

--skip

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Hack hadn't been advised of the UFS command structure change.  Yall should shoot him a PM and get it worked out.  We have some issues on our end as well that we are clearing up.

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Dave, I'm sure that someone from command will get with him to make corrections. I am not high up enough on the totem pole to speak on changes needed.

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Good deal.  but the security codes make no sence to me.

 

UFS has Freqs 2-22 on Odd channels, COST on Even channels.  (Perfect) 

 

Security code has nothing to do with freq,  so we have lets say 30 security codes.  That means that we have over (30 * 10 = 300) usable channels per team.  This is great and simple.  but each unit on a different freq does not need their own security code. 

 

the two are not interchangeable and are separate.

 

if you are on channel 1 sec code 1  you can only talk to and listen to 1-1  

if you are on 2-1 you can only talk to and listen to 2-1.

if you are on 1-0 you can listen to all on 1-1 to 1-30 but only talk to 1-0

if you are on 2-0 you can listen to all on 2-1 to 2-30 but can only talk to 2-0

 

Since you have the freqs list (UFS Even numbers, and COST Even Numbers.)  let the teams figure it out and adapt it to thier stucture.

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The sub tone is a coded tone that tells the radio receiving traffic to open it's squelch circuit and kick on the audio (so you can hear it).  

 

Here's what happens:  

 

All the radios are FM which means that they can only receive one signal at a time (the strongest signal, that is how FM works) 

 

Bob and bob are on 2-2 

 

Sid and sid are on 2-3 

 

Ed and ed are on 2-4 

 

 

 

Ed calls ed while close to Bob.    bob is also trying to call Bob but since Ed is transmitting closer to Bob, Bob's radio is receiving only Ed's signal which does not have the right sub tone.  Bob's radio ignores Ed's signal since it does not have the right tone so Bob hears nothing.

 

Pissed off that bob is not calling him, Bob starts trying to reach bob to see what's up and now Ed who had been talking to ed no longer receives ed's transmissions.    

 

The net result of all of this is that everyone tries harder still to reach each other and continues to secretly walk all over every one else.  

 

There is a term for this:  

 

​Squelch Capture Jamming. 

 

 

13877827724_43acc59571_o.jpg

 

 

Sid and sid are close together so they are doing fine since each of them is in the immediate vicinity of the other one and as such locally is able to always have the strongest signal.  

 

You DO NOT HAVE (30 * 10) = 300 channels, you have 10 and if you stack security codes you will for all intents and purposes have ZERO channels.  

 

recommend that you scratch what you have there and start fresh, the matrix you have will cause a great deal of headaches.  

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Aswayze,

  You are exactly right - as compiled the comm matrix will not provide good communications at the squad level. Communications at the squad level sucks. It always has, and with 600 players spread across a very limited number of channels, it will continue. The matrix above is a compromise that tries to provide Command staff the best possible communications - so they can coordinate the fight, while allowing at least some communications at the squad level. Frankly, I've heard from more than one staff member (on both sides) that it is more important that command is able to communicate than anything else. I can't argue - without command this becomes a big skirmish.

 

 

In another thread I posted a rant that discusses the fact that the "I want a more powerful radio so _I_ can talk to _MY_ squad" attitude is the wrong attitude to have at an OP like OBH at D-Day. It is an ever increasing arms race that leads to more communications problems than the AO causes, for the reasons you've mentioned above.

 

The key is for players to use their radios in a different way -  

    Don't expect to be able to communicate across the AO, use the radios to talk to your local squad, or simply yell. I know this isn't ideal if you become separated from your squad (back to FOB, camp area, helo runs, etc), but neither is no one being able to communicate. Squad and Platoon leaders should be willing to assist with 'health checks' or to pass other traffic at the platoon or command level if needed. I know many won't agree, but I think that if everyone at the squad level would stick to FRS level transmitting levels then communications would be BETTER, not worse in most cases. But this won't happen, so we've got to deal with the 4-5watt radios.

 

I've tried to mitigate some of the problems you mention by providing squads in a given platoon different channels. Let me explain:

  In the past Platoons were given two frequencies, one for Squad leaders + Platoon leader, and the other was for the squads. In that situation you've got 4 squads who are always in close proximity, always jamming themselves, regardless of where they were.

 

  This matrix breaks that up such that all of the 1st Squads are on a frequency, all of 2nd Squads on are another, etc. The theory is that platoons will, for much of the time, be in different areas of the field. There will be times that you will have more than one platoon in a given area (Colleville, etc), but even in those situations the platoons will, in theory, be clumped together in the same side of the town, etc. If platoons are in fact in different areas of the field then their squads won't jam themselves and they'll have better (but still not good) communications than years past.

 

The full matrix (Excel document) does provide alternate frequencies for use by squads, in an area of the UHF band that does not appear to have any licensed users anywhere near D-Day. I didn't mention this in the post for a number of reasons, the least of which is that using those frequencies is illegal (but so is using a 4-5watt radio on FRS frequencies, or using GMRS frequencies without a license). If anyone decides to use those alternate frequencies they should let their command staff know so that command can 'find' them if needed. 

 

TL;DR:

2 dedicated command frequencies and 5 dedicated platoon frequencies per team, 1 CDF frequency and 1 AMS "911" frequency gives us 8 frequencies to share between 600 players who only want to talk to their 10 closes friends for the weekend.

 

Edit: Forgot to mention: this is the way we did it for CoST last year (we didn't follow the AMS matrix very closely), and I'm told it worked better than the year before. As I wasn't a grunt last year, I don't know. 

 

I'm not aware of a better way to do it, but I am open to suggestions.

 

-Hack

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That is a pretty well reasoned response Hack, I cannot argue with that logic.  Basically you are just forsaking sure fire inter-squad comms for the hope/promise of better platoon/company comms.   

 

That's reasonable enough and will likely work just fine particularly if you can get guys to run their squad radios down at 1/2 watt instead of 4-5 watts.  

 

In reality, if I was a squad leader at this event, I wouldn't be making use of a squad frequency anyhow since that would mean one more radio for me to deal with (since my job is to be on the platoon net) and one more way to be stuck having to listen to jibber jabber.  Voice commands really are the way to do squad stuff unless you come up with a keen solution like the old PRR-9 radios where the squad leader got a transmitter and the squad members just got receivers.  :)

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Y'know, If you just have a Range Control freq, an Emergency freq, a Command freq for each side, and a company freq for each company, that's all you need. Too many people jabbering on too many radios.

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I really appreciate everyone's feedback in this thread as well as all of Hack's hard work.

 

We are trying to establish a Comm Matrix that we can use for every AMS event to help cut down on the confusion and issues we always see at our events.

 

We have limited resources with our frequencies and sacrificed intra squad for platoon and command level communication. 

 

I think this will lay a good foundation as AMS and the community develops and matures to the point where we see we scale platoon / multi-platoon level tactics be employed with a reliable communication  infrastructure.

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Aswayze,

  PRR-9 radios sound like a great idea. The same function could be replicated - program an invalid transmit freq into the radios used by your squadmates. I like that idea a lot. I doubt I could get my team to do it long term, but maybe as a training exercise.

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For UFS folks... Guess what there are folks that will not get a privat channel. you will have to deal with it as such. Platoons will have a freq and companies will have a freq, Command will have few a freq.

 

if there are any left after primary issue, we will see if what is left can be shared equally.

 

the thing is there are limited resources and not everyone can nor should have their own channels. Yes you still need a radio to monitor emergency channels and maybe your company/ platoon nets.. but you don't need to talk on the radio unless you are command or have specific reason to be on the net. use good radio procedures and understand what is going on will help here. and RTO who handles the comms will also lessen the requirement for more channels... get used to it the bigger this gets the less channels available the more creative we will have to get.

 

the only folks I see needing a channel are:

 

Emergency net

 

Command net

 

Command alternate which can be used as a the supply net

 

one alternate net to be used at my discretion

 

Medical net (non-emergency a game play net)

 

Alpha company net

and one for each platoon

 

Bravo Company net

and one for each platoon

 

Charlie Company net

and one for each platoon

 

vehicle company 3 nets

 

beyond that is extra you will have to use hand and arm signals or squads are going to have to plan for no comms like we always do..

 

Keep it simple

in my opinion..

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Top, I understand your point and completely get the limited resources thing.  But to say you don't need to talk on the radio unless you are command or have specific reason to be on the net is just not always correct in my opinion.   I have used radios intra squad my entire MILSIM career and have always found them very useful.  My take it this...most airsoft encounters take place at a close range...close enough to hear the opposition talk.  A lot of times it is ambushes being set up.  In real world, I would guess that these ambushes (or even regular engagements) take place at a longer distance.  In airsoft, they take place up close and personal most of the times.  I have always found our engagments are much easier if we have radio comms with my squad mates to coordinate communication.  The times we haven't used radios...not so much.  Now, my "team" doesn't practice weekly like some teams and we don't know each other inside out and know all the hand signals we can, but a quick voice message over the radio is (to me) very very helpful.

I know we (SLAP) used an RTO when we went to Chicago last august and it worked out great, so that should deffinately be a must for all plattons/squads.  I also know we had intra squad comms and that helped us out tremendously.

Again, I understand the limited resources...it just seems to me you are looking at this from a real work POV and not an airsoft POV.

From what I have heard (and witnessed from my time at these events), communication has ALWAYS been an issue for these events...so maybe "using hand and arm signals or planning to have no comms like we always do" isn't the solution.  SInce comms have always been an issue, maybe we shouldn't stay status quo?  Of course, with limited resources, there isnt much else that can be done either, so its really kind of a catch 22.  :(

/ramble

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In the night evolution, we need flares. Yeah, lots of colored flares. You see movement in the treeline, you send up a parachute flare and have your support gunners hose the bushes! YEE-HAW!!!!

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Top, I understand your point and completely get the limited resources thing.  But to say you don't need to talk on the radio unless you are command or have specific reason to be on the net is just not always correct in my opinion. why? clog the net with jibber jabber so commanders cant pass nothing   I have used radios intra squad my entire MILSIM career and have always found them very useful. Yep your right but there were enough channels to go around right? in our case we dont have enough channels  My take it this...most airsoft encounters take place at a close range.if engaged use your voice it is a weapon also the bad guys know where you are..close enough to hear the opposition talk if thta close they can hear you to even if you use a radio.  A lot of times it is ambushes being set up prior planning lessens the need for talking.  In real world, I would guess that these ambushes (or even regular engagements) take place at a longer distance sometimes yes sometimes no...  In airsoft, they take place up close and personal most of the times.  I have always found our engagments are much easier if we have radio comms with my squad mates to coordinate communication.  The times we haven't used radios...not so much.  Now, my "team" doesn't practice weekly like some teams and we don't know each other inside out and know all the hand signals we can, but a quick voice message over the radio is (to me) very very helpful agreed if there are enough channels to share.

I know we (SLAP) used an RTO when we went to Chicago last august and it worked out great, so that should deffinately be a must for all plattons/squads.  I also know we had intra squad comms and that helped us out tremendously.

Again, I understand the limited resources...it just seems to me you are looking at this from a real work POV and not an airsoft POV.

From what I have heard (and witnessed from my time at these events), communication has ALWAYS been an issue for these events...so maybe "using hand and arm signals or planning to have no comms like we always do" isn't the solution i ask again what is the solution?.  SInce comms have always been an issue, maybe we shouldn't stay status quo even in ops that we had enough channels comms is the worst... must have a fall back what do you suggest??  Of course, with limited resources, there isnt much else that can be done either, so its really kind of a catch 22.  :(Agreed but if we all begin to understand the use of different hand and arm signals they do work as effective as radio and in some cases better.

/ramble

I also understand where you are coming from... what is the solution then?

 

we have maybe 50 channals (a guess).... 2 teams of over 300 players... who gets priority of comms?

 

Hand and arm signals work! as does the loud voice...

 

something has to give.. if command is trying to pass information and little jimmy who has to talk all the time on the radio cuz its cool wont shut up long enough for anyone to pass anything then what?

 

I have been in command for every single OP coming up on 8 years.. yep evey single large scale op I have been in since  I started. and comms have always been an issue.. even during my 22 plus years in the Marine corps Comms sucked,, everyone hated the comm dude cause the radios were always down.. LOL

 

its late and I have rambles enough.. LOL good noight

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^This. If Platoon leads and Squad leads are in the fight with their men and keep an eye on the battle and whats happening then they should have no problems communicating orders to them. God forbid they should have to move among the frontlines to pass and gather info. The only radio traffic, IMO, should be command talking to companies, and companies talking to platoons. Past that, everything should be communicated through voice or hand signals. You can learn the hand signals in a matter of minutes.

 

The only part of having squad comms that I see as beneficial is being able to link up with your squad if you get seperated. This can be remedied by going to your platoon net, getting a location from your platoon lead, then turning your radio back off.

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understand your points perfectly top...even agree with most of them.  I don't really have a solution at hand.  As to your first point, I am not advocating letting anyone on the main channels...I was speaking specifically about private, intersquad channels.  But I do get with an Op this size, that would be near impossible.

No worries, as Gunny Highway would say, "Improvise, adapt, overcome".

 

Btw, this doesn't mean we will be swapping spit in the showers...:)

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understand your points perfectly top...even agree with most of them.  I don't really have a solution at hand.  As to your first point, I am not advocating letting anyone on the main channels...I was speaking specifically about private, intersquad channels.  But I do get with an Op this size, that would be near impossible.

No worries, as Gunny Highway would say, "Improvise, adapt, overcome".

 

Btw, this doesn't mean we will be swapping spit in the showers...<------------------------------------ :o :o :o :o

Oh I know you do... and know I understand and agree with some of your points as well... Some of our younger players need to hear both sides and at least try to understand the madness that is Milsim... it is way more then a dude with a rifle shoved together with other dudes shooting BB's at each other.. :P

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