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American MilSim
AMS Forums set to ARCHIVE MODE (POSTING DISABLED). These forums will be used for historical reference, otherwise you can find the AMS event pages located on Facebook.
TheJP

12 Hour Evolution

12 Hour Evolutions  

59 members have voted

  1. 1. Would you like to see 12 hour evolutions at AMS events?

    • Yes
      48
    • No
      11


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What Bagel said over and over and over.  Even in shape one can only go balls to the wall for so long.  Easy to say Yes as a chairsofter right now, but then reality sets in on the field.  The majority of players aren't as OAF as they might believe.

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I completely agree with Nasty and Bagel.  Everyone wants to sound super gung-ho for this, but the reality is that the longer the game goes on without a break, the more and more people are going to drop out.  Id rather everyone be able to give 100% effort for a shorter time than have a game linger on with diminishing returns for the people who are left.  Plus, like others were saying, games like this would put a lot of extra pressure and stress on the admins to keep the game running smoothly.

 

AMS events seem to cater to a large portion of the MIlsim community, not just the super hard core guys, and I love this about them.

I for one appreciated the breaks at Rebel Yell 2, regardless of the heat.

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This would be my vote AMS. If you want to incorporate more time into the ops to make it more "milsim" than do that. But, I would not push your ops too hard as you will lose money. You are a business, and your first goal HAS to be making money. More players = more money. However, more milsim =/= more players.

 

If you want to incorporate the time management, resource management, etc. that comes with prolonged gameplay, than dedicate one op to be a straight milsim experience. When you show up, you sign in, you chrono, and you are in the game. From there, the game lasts the entire time until endex is called. No breaks, no pause, just constant firefight. This will attract the players who desire a game like this, and will not force your other clientele to deal with prolonged gameplay at every op if they don't want to. Run it as an experiment. See how it goes.

 

I personally wouldn't go for an extended 12 hr section. If you are going to have breaks, than have breaks. If you are going to extend, than make it all gameplay. By going in the middle you are stringing out the players that need a break, and stopping the players that want to keep fighting.

 

TLDR: Dedicate 1 op that is 24-30 hrs straight gameplay. Leave the others. Make money.

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Interesting idea, and one I'm on board with as a player because I like pushing myself, but I have reservations from a command point of view.

 

The problem with or maybe the fun thing about airsoft units is that all players pay and participate, with rare exception for usually temporary health issues, to be "teeth" and up on the front line fighting or leading the fight. I'm not sure anyone will pay the price of admission to an event to be in a logistics unit, leaving us with a very small "tail" of support troops, basically the admins.

 

Putting 200 people on each side in the field without logistical support isn't something a conscientious leader would do, as you run into the obvious risks of lack of water leading to heat stroke, lack of food and physical exertion leading to physical exhaustion, and that exhaustion leading to clouded judgment and reduced physical coordination, resulting in declined morale and increasing the risk of injuries in a real world environment. In a "sanitized" AO, like a paintball field, those problems are relatively easy to solve with a water station and easy access to the parking area for food.  In a real world location, like D-Day or Roosevelt, over a 12 hour period it becomes increasingly difficult to account for each individual player and determine his or her status, with the corollary that it is easier to "lose" people and not notice they are missing until hours later. So if it is done, there needs to be a greater admin role, not in the sense of a referee, but more like an NCO, that is responsible for knowing where each person is in the unit and that that person is still in fighting form. And while we have squad and platoon leaders, those persons are charged with leading the "warfighting" not ensuring wellbeing. Again, pre-existing teams generally have someone who fills the NCO role in regards to personnel, but not everyone has that sort of support and even those that do, will find it tested by larger AOs, with more players over a longer time.

 

Limit the size of the AO, the number of players or the time to reduce logistical stress and risk, or upgrade the logistical "tail" to meet the needs even when one combines a large AO, hundreds of players and 12+ hours of field time.

 

So, short answer, yes, but it requires a commitment to logistics and that needs to come from organizers and the players.

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Now before the "Oh but I can handle it" posts come out again... Here's my 2 cents. And maybe some extra change.  

I think the idea is great, but in practicality... I think we all would need to be VERY, VERY careful. Even at an event like ESR. I did read someone mention, oh well it's cooler, we'll be fine. In fact, it's almost MORE dangerous to be doing something like this because we don't notice how hot our bodies are and how dehydrated we've become. 


It sounds stupid, but my concern would be that even if there were a rotating lunch break for people, they wouldn't take it. Or wait too long to eat, etc. Until after their bodies are starting to shut down and unfortunately, once we get to that point, it's like rolling the rock up the hill. It takes a lot of time and effort to get back to where we were when we started. Dehydration is a very, very serious thing. And I'd rather not see those flashing lights and can't imagine the fun conversation with the EMTs/Paramedics (yes, I know I'm being a worrier).

I do understand the sentiment that it's kindof a pain to have to reset after the lunch breaks, but so what? If it means stopping, eating, rehydrating, cooling down and getting ready to kick ass again for the second bout? I'm all for that. But really, whether you're 18yrs old and in the prime of your life who works out every day, or the 50 yr old who does this for kicks on the weekend occassionally, we all need to refuel. Hell, I can't even wait for the break, I eat on the field. 


On the money making side of this, I'm sure whoever there is with their shops (ie kastaway, etc) would definitely see a decline in sales if there's no definite break during the day. So they're open for a few hrs in the morning and then the afternoon? At what point does the cost of prepping the shop/tent/gear, gas, etc outweigh the benefit of the handful of people who would be able to stop by?

That being said... Potentially longer evolutions? Starting a little earlier in the day maybe? I don't know what the answer is. Or having ONE OP that's the crazy people longer OP? Okay.

Again, just a few thoughts on it. I'm only one person, but I wouldn't be to keen on it. Call me a wimp, I don't care. I know my limits and I want to have the energy to play both days.

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The one long OP would be fun to do. See, to me the stress and fatigue are part of the game, and even make it more fun. But I sometimes forget that other people do not think so,and I can sound kind of unfeeling sometimes. I like to go out give it all I have, even with the risk of dehydration, which I know from personal experience isn't fun. I remember being in a hiking tent in south dakota at 2 am moaning my guts out because I hadn't drank enough water that day. I make sure to drink water now. To me its all part of the game, and if I get dehydrated then its my fault. But then like I said, a lot of people don't like that. And really you can't blame them, sometimes its not fun! I think in the summer it would be nice to have mandatory water drinking times, because you can forget to drink water when your adrenaline is pumping. Then you realize your mistake to late. In the cooler games though it should be ok to go longer. Just my 2 cents!

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While I'm usually in favor of making airsoft OP's longer so we can all get more trigger time in, I feel like this would only hurt people in the long run. Looking at it from a nutrition/hydration standpoint, this could be potentially dangerous for players who do not know their limits. On average during moderate exercise (which I'm sure this event will be moderate exercise with the running, jogging, crawling, crouching, etc.), a person should be drinking 8 ounces of water every 15 minutes. This means 32 ounces of water an hour, for a total of around 384 ounces during a 12 hour period. No, this is not only when it's hot out. No, this is not only when you feel thirsty. In order to maintain peak performance during exercise and to stay safely hydrated, this is the average amount of water one should drink.

 

However, most people at this event will (I assume) be carrying 100 ounce water bladders, with maybe some extra water bottles on them. This means that at some point during this 12 hour period, you're going to have to go back for water refills. Which is where I have a problem with the longer game, because it is going to interrupt the flow of the fights, with different squads going back at different times for water and/or food.

 

The food issue isn't as big of a deal, because I know most players will be carrying snacks, powerbars, even MRE's on their person while playing (I know I will). But the water issue has me concerned. So unless this event will provide coolers of water at an FOB, or have a truck going around with water coolers so players can refill during play, I think people having to go back at random times (because everyone consumes water/food differently, obviously) might end up hurting the flow of the game at different points during the day. 

 

That's my .02¢

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What if we had water coolers at respawn points, then we could stock up on water and ammo at the same time. I know I am going to have a couple water bottles and some Gatorade at my closest respawn or FOB with my ammo. 

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I would be willing to help transport water also. It would be neat if our logistics would have to work under fire, but then we don't want to make the water an HVT, thereby making it beneficial to the opposing force to stop it.  :)  

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What if we had water coolers at respawn points, then we could stock up on water and ammo at the same time. I know I am going to have a couple water bottles and some Gatorade at my closest respawn or FOB with my ammo. 

I have to say, I VERY much appreciated the water buffalo at Broken Home. It was a total life saver as that field is SO freaking big. Our camelbacks were completely bone dry and seeing that was like Holy Grail, lol. As we were going up that hill up to the airfield, I was actually having to put my hands on my legs as I was walking up because my muscles were just not having it.

 

Water coolers (like you would have for the team or the like) would empty so fast, I wonder about the cost vs feasibility of dragging them around. That being said, renting a water buffalo and having it delivered, etc, to the field is NOT cheap. 

 

If it were to become part of a mission to secure water, I have to tell you, I'd just stand there with my dead rag out, flipping everyone off, while I rehydrated... lol.

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Simple as this. Do it. If you do not want to take part in this, then join a squad which has decided as a whole to take a break. Or an even better option is to, as squad leaders, PL, CO, know when your guys need a break. We all beg for "milsim" but yet fail to realize that constant fire fights are not when the real memories come and when it is actually feeling real. If your a SL and can tell your guys need a break, either head to your nearest FOB or set up a defensive position and allow your guys a rotational rest period. Guys are on watch while others rest and hydrate and eat something. Inform command if you know your guys need a break so you dont take a mission that you cant realistically complete. All of us think we are so high speed and can take a full day of fast paced shooting but in reality you cant. Now this comes full circle will being in shape for what you plan to do and knowing how far you can push. There is always a "wall" and some see it sooner than others. While some cant ever get over their wall because they werent ready to face it. If you actually condition yourself, allow yourself to take a break, and stay healthy it will be the best time of your life

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I think it depends on the leadership.  If the leader cannot retain command and control the leadership and structure will wear down and break off.  A good commander should be able to handle the logistics behind it.  As far as player base, you can implement a short class prior LD (during safety briefing) that explains the symptoms and identifiers of heat exhaustion.  Won't take but ten minutes, and since everyone is required to sit in the class you know everyone has knowledge before they step onto the field.  If someone wants to be a hero and choose to hide the signs, then that is their problem.  I think this will help improve gameplay and further our milsim aspects.

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I agree with Junior16, most minors will beat everyone out, or be gone after half the game.  I play for 7-8 hours straight monthly and that can be challenging enough from restrictions such as ammunition.I like meeting the wall of a challenge. There are players who will go over,through or around said wall, but some who get dead on stopped. But hey, if you quit you at least had the guts to try!

 

AMS will have to have tons of water nearby.

 

I have a few solutions combined with earlier ideas on this thread

Not being able to find players: Have squads check in every 3 or 4 hours for A-rest,reloading,refilling hydration and B- Squad leader does a head count, tells platoon leader their squad is good.

 

Players quitting: Remind them how much money and energy they will have wasted if they quit.

 

Tiredness: Let each squad have an optional time of rest for an hour, where they can just hydrate up, reload and sleep.

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I say go for it. I'd like to give the players a confidence vote and say that they know their limits. If you are out of shape and can't last moving around for 12 hours, then be a man and take a break when you need to. Nobody is impressed by people falling out because they were trying to keep up. I'm positive your team will be fine with that. In my opinion, it shouldn't be up to AMS to dictate when people need a break. Players should be in tune enough with their bodies to know when it's time to rest. As for water concerns...I have never seen an issue with water at an AMS event. They provide more than enough opportunities for players to get water, to the point that if a player falls out because of dehydration, it's their own fault. 

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I think it depends on the leadership.  If the leader cannot retain command and control the leadership and structure will wear down and break off.  A good commander should be able to handle the logistics behind it.  As far as player base, you can implement a short class prior LD (during safety briefing) that explains the symptoms and identifiers of heat exhaustion.  Won't take but ten minutes, and since everyone is required to sit in the class you know everyone has knowledge before they step onto the field.  If someone wants to be a hero and choose to hide the signs, then that is their problem.  I think this will help improve gameplay and further our milsim aspects.

My concern is somewhat related, but mainly as a matter of communications failure. In ideal situations where everyone's comms work, no repeaters go down, and no interference hogs the net, rotating elements in and out of the fight would work.

 

But since we have an imperfect world, I'd vote to keep the midday break in the game. If we want to add milsim elements in, other options can be looked at - branching objectives, randomly occurring events, pre-scripted sudden interferences (like temporary loss of medical supplies, temporary comms outages, reduced weapon allowances, etc). Most milsim elements are matters of mental exercise as applied to shooting things and positioning to shoot things.

 

So really, you can still be hard milsim without risking field injuries.

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I agree with you 100% - UFS should take little tea and lunch breaks during the day while CoST can continue to carry the fight.  We do not have any problems with comms (and the problems we do have are quickly sorted out).

 

 

Most milsim elements are matters of mental exercise as applied to shooting things and positioning to shoot things.

 

What does this even mean?   :wacko:

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I agree with you 100% - UFS should take little tea and lunch breaks during the day while CoST can continue to carry the fight.  We do not have any problems with comms (and the problems we do have are quickly sorted out).

 

 

 

What does this even mean?   :wacko:

Big words and silly statements. Summing it up, milsim is all problem solving that results in shooting people somewhere along the line.

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I think this would work well but it would seem to me the missions of an op might need to be changed where squads are in closer proximity to one another. That way if you have an entire squad that wants to go rest except for one guy then he could just go hook up with another squad close by and not have to trek all the way across an AO to find another squad to join up with.

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That would work with a decentralized team, but I promise you CoST already has an R&R plan designed and ready for implementation.

 

This goes under the assumption that players are ready to take breaks and come back from breaks when we allot them time blocks.  Players getting tired from dehydration, sugar level, injury, frustration, etc is different and obviously cannot be allotted but we will have contingencies in effect for those types of situations.

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I think this would work well but it would seem to me the missions of an op might need to be changed where squads are in closer proximity to one another. That way if you have an entire squad that wants to go rest except for one guy then he could just go hook up with another squad close by and not have to trek all the way across an AO to find another squad to join up with.

 

I don't think the op needs to change for this. I think this falls under command. Find out who is rocking technicals, and keep constant tabs on them. That way if they are in the proximity of people who want to fall back and relax(and aren't actively engaged) they can hook up with the vic and get a ride back.

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This is a great concept!

I would like to have the AO hot for the 12 hours. If you wanted to head to the car for something or to rest you could. Those that want to stay in the action the entire time can do so.

A fair amount of this can fall on CO XO and how they want to run their teams.

Could keep everyone on the AO and take breaks at the FOB during the action that way you are always involved to some extent.

This is a great AO to do this in and I personally think its a great idea....COUGH..." its mine" Cough

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