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Joe

Ok, so what happened?

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Soooo, Bagel.... "Trolls" in this instance are people who differ from your own opinion? Mmmkay. Noted.


What I believe he was getting at was to say that not all "citizen/civilians" are useless home-bodies. If there are a population of them that chose to form a "CDF" then it's not completely unbelievable and in conjunction with the storyline...
No where did he say that there was some massive underground militia or bring current politics or "liberal" media into it. Wisco, you did that.

In anycase, lest we forget, this is a FICTIONAL STORYLINE. 


SO let's take a moment and look at this from another viewpoint. 
CDF put in a lot of effort, no one disputes this. What is bothering people, and you guys can feel free to correct me, is some people coming out and saying, "Yah, good job. Now get rid of CDF and ignore all the headway and interesting twists you guys have created."

It's a slap in the face to those that bust their asses to make the comments that the CDF (non)faction should be done away with.

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No one is saying that the CDF should be a full fledged faction for every game.  You would certainly expect such a force to be much inferior in the open field to larger, better equipped armies.  But it makes great sense in a city environment.  Urban combat has always been a great equalizer in combat, allowing relatively poorly equipped forces to inflict much pain and delay on superior units.  So having the CDF be a significant factor in this game was is in no way "unrealistic".  It was a hard fight for UFS and CoST because real urban combat is hard fighting.

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First off I do like the the idea of the hearts and minds aspect of the civilians. If you don't mind I would like to adapt that into some of the ops I am trying to put on. I think that would give it a much more Milsim feel then just asking and getting info from civy joe. Piss off the civis enough and you could have a revolt in your hands and that could be bad. I like the idea of choices helping or totally screwing your team over because someone wants to be freakin Rambo. It would make people have to stop and think. Like a RPG In real life but we get to shoot each other with bbs instead of hacking with swords and fireballs.

 

Second CDF and Cost had bad communication after the cease fire mainly to comms being either off or someone key's up. But as soon as it was made clear we were shouting enemy movements to one another and asking if they needed water. Again we figured the hearts and minds aspect of if we give em jerky skittles and water maybe they won't keep trying to shoot me when I try to hydrate. But alas that didn't happen as soon as supplies were collected civilians suddenly shot my my support so it was a scope war all over. some tan guys showed up at some point and asked if I needed help. They even mediced me sadly only to threaten to kill me again. But thankfully they left leaving our dignity intact for a few minutes.

 

After all that is when it got confusing we finally had the streets on lock down everyone back and set them game was called and sent back to FOB. This ruffled feathers since we fought so hard to get every troop in the right spot to secure. Only to be told start again. Then the roof insident with Opfor and Cost. Idk what was going on we hit and hit hard and cleared and were setting snipers back on the roof I saw a cameraman and some kid in a yellow shirt. I had no does way was going on and forced my point man to move through the door he was shot instantly. So I fragged the roof before taking a shot to the chest. After respawn everything was explained. I felt like a A hole. But hey war sucks and intel is always wrong so I shrugged it off and started to lay waste to 404 and the woods by the portapotty. Some fire from next door came my way from the building next to CDF I took the two guys out from the stairs and was shot by friendly I found out cost guy wicked head shot who ever you are. Was mediced then head shoted again. And bled out. That's when I came back hand helped secure for the sat dish

 

Seemed pretty good to me overall. My team had damn good communication when we could. Problems was gettin to the rest of cost. If we can fix that then it be too smooth maybe next year ill have a designated radio guy to keep tabs with everyone or send runners. And CDF beig more open to help and a bit better on trigger control so everyone doesn't become enemy be cool but war is hell and it makes people do crazy stuff and I don't know what happened last tile to make CDF hate CoSt so much but hopefully with new leaders wanting to step up maybe new bonds can be made.

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To make it very clear: the sane voices here are not saying get rid of CDF. We are saying Drew got CDF on the right track, now let's continue that idea. More intel missions, scout missions, and sabotage missions for the various leadership. More diplomacy required from the commands, more restraint from the grunts. If you want a real world "CDF" to compare it to, look at J'Sha Mahdi and you will see exactly what I am talking about.Stray, you spelled it out very well.

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Thank you for clarifying your viewpoint. Maybe I read through your preliminary post a little quicker than I should have.
Either way, least we can still "shake hands" and say good game and go along with whatever the AMS gods chose to do next. :)


P.S. I don't think it was an issue of CDF hates CoST at all... Anywho. 

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Real world facts... No meetings in secret (SMH) Southern California Militia 1600 strong estimated 300 former US military.

Northern California Militia estimated 1200 strong half former US military.

Lone Star Militia 1800 unknown amount of former military.

Texas Militia estimated 900 strong estimated 300 former military.

North Texas Militia 1400 no data on former military.

Central Texas Militia 800 strong 200 former military.

There are several groups in Oklahoma that total an estimated 4200 strong with another estimated 500 being former military. All these groups have been around for more than 20 years and train monthly. Several States Have well organized militias that answer to the state only and are independent of the US military who also train monthly.

Oath Keepers estimated 250000 strong all former or currently serving military and Leo's.

 

So yes it is quite possible for a large well equipped and well trained civilian militia force to be encountered in AMS' fictional civil war. While these units would have little to know heavy support as far as arms and personal infantry equipment they would be on par as most infantry equipment can be purchased privately (look at yourselves in the mirror). These units would be a deadly threat to any army especially fighting in their own back yards.

 

I do agree that any CDF units that would be included in an op for sake of game play and for friend or foe recognition not be wearing either CoST or UFS colors. I also agree that they should add a flair of role play for the regular army forces to interact with. Mostly they would be fighting a classic guerrilla war against who they deemed to be their enemy. IMHO they would be more of a Force Multiplier and intelligence network. ie shedding gear and interacting with the enemy. (Shades of winter garden 3 JP?).

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To make it very clear: the sane voices here are not saying get rid of CDF. We are saying Drew got CDF on the right track, now let's continue that idea. More intel missions, scout missions, and sabotage missions for the various leadership. More diplomacy required from the commands, more restraint from the grunts. If you want a real world "CDF" to compare it to, look at J'Sha Mahdi and you will see exactly what I am talking about.Stray, you spelled it out very well.

Thank you bagel, Don and I worked very hard and tried to employ as much tact as possible and stay true to a real world cdf as possible, it also helped that we had compitent squad leaders and bad ass RTO to help with combat control. so thanks again in recognizing our hard efforts, We wont forget it ;)

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LOL I agree with Mayo.. But I will say:

 

The thing is CDF you all did a pretty damn good job.. I am not disputing this in anyway. (those that do should be ignored) you all fought well and did your thing, But you are looking at it from your side of the fence and I am looking from my side and it is very different (notice I said different not better or worse) so my opinions are mine cause I cant see what you see because I'm on another team.

 

So you can say regardless of all the chattering if you feel your team did well we then they did! If you aren't getting enough back slaps and high fives and are very concerned about what others think well you may want to reevaluate what you expect from this GAME. Me I expect friendships and respect from all sides regardless of the team you play on.

 

I find it funny that many times I try to make sure to shake, fist bump, high five as many players as I can during a time that allows me to. I always get a funny look from opposing team players as if I have the plague and we are supposed to be enemies..LOL  I for one respect all of you that choose to don a uniform represent your faction and play with like minded folks and honor those that give us the privilage to play at war.

 

This discussion will go on and on and on there are those for or against or want a different set up... the coolest thing about Milsim air-soft is you can try anything and I mean anything. Sometimes it works sometime not so much but you get to try again and again until you get as close to everyone being happy as you can and you will still have unhappy campers its human nature if you ask me.

 

CDF you all fought well and with Honor! I believe this was one of the better games with a CDF like force though I still hate you in a non-violent loving brotherly way!!! I will say the same for COST hate you in a non-violent loving brotherly way! Conversely I LOVE UFS PERIOD we rock!

 

WOW! I must be getting soft in my old age somebody punch me....

 

Top

 

PS- Drink water!!! Don't forget your Dead rag red in color or how to use it!! Full seal Goggles means FULL SEAL GOGGLES!! Shoot straight and dominate your enemy with superior tactics and firepower and if that fails you can always reset and try again.

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Aww Top... you still got me. - Truth be told - When the adrenaline got going, I just shot EVERYONE who wasn't wearing Tan MC or DCU...  Why.... Well cause it was fun as hell... :o

 

 

Thats exactly what I do when I get into the Helicopter Gun runs....  I shoot everybody.  Tan, Green, Red, Fusha, Tope, and Multicam....

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I think there are multiple things that could be tried here, I was fine and very happy with how the cdf forces were done with this op. But I think if some changes were to be made, taken points from everyone's ideas either

1. have a smaller cdf group

2. Give cdf pistols, shotguns, or gas powered smgs only

3. Make cdf dress in civi clothes. Nothing that resembles a uniform at all.

4. Limit cdf to semi auto only

5. Make it to where cdf cannot use any comms.

 

I think any combo done with these options would def make a change in game play and be a good change that most people would be happy with.

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I think there are multiple things that could be tried here, I was fine and very happy with how the cdf forces were done with this op. But I think if some changes were to be made, taken points from everyone's ideas either

1. have a smaller cdf group

2. Give cdf pistols, shotguns, or gas powered smgs only

3. Make cdf dress in civi clothes. Nothing that resembles a uniform at all.

4. Limit cdf to semi auto only

5. Make it to where cdf cannot use any comms.

 

I think any combo done with these options would def make a change in game play and be a good change that most people would be happy with.

#2) with this idea, you might as well take them out of the game all together unless they did strictly LARPing. I say that because unless they are limited to a CQB only environment, you would render them combat ineffective. If you were forced to be combat ineffective for the ENTIRE OP, you wouldn't have fun, and that's what we're all here for.

 

 

#4) This go around, CDF got to see some of the better teams that frequent AMS OPs. I have personally played along side and against most of these guys at one point or another and I can tell you that they all use semi-auto almost exclusively already. Not to mention that there was a lot of engagements at RY2 that had to be semi auto only for everyone anyway. To a good operator, semi-auto isn't a handicap and full auto is a crutch. Everyone acts as if CDF was wall hacking and aimbot-ing at this OP. you have to have it be as fair and even as possible for everyone so that, again, everyone has a good time.

 

#5) This one is rediculous. Coms are not just a inter-squad/platoon aid, but it's a life line to staff and possibly emergency personnel. So, to totally prohibit coms would be crazy, and it would be almost impossible to enforce letting CDF have radios but only use them for staff and emergencies.

 

On the other hand....

 

#1) I think most are on board with this already. CDF should be an X factor. Small enough to balance out the battlefield without making it lop-sided.

 

#3) I somewhat agree with this, as do most. I DO believe CDF needs a uniform but nothing that resembles either factions primary colors. For whatever reason, if I had to take up arms to defend my home, it wouldn't be in my T-shirt and blue jeans. I think Krypek Typhon, black, and tactical grey would be great in easily setting them apart from anyone else. I think that such a uniform requirement should be enforced regardless of faction loyalty weather it be the entire OP or temporary. I also think that all squads should have to match within CDF just as any other faction. It is still MilSim after all.

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Here is my half cent advice.  If CDF is to continue as a 3rd faction, the uniform needs to change.  No green/woodland allowed.  

Haven't read all the posts, but this one caught my eye. I think AMS should really crack down on the uniform restrictions. Covers and gear should match the uniforms, and as much as the UFS hates it, Multicam needs to go. Depending on the situation it can look either green or tan. That's why it's called MULTICAM. One of our guys showed up after game on Sunday and had replaced his combat shirt with a black T-shirt. I told him to go back to the parking lot and put on something green. He argued and I simply told him that as of that moment, he was the enemy. He continued to argue and I told him it was an order. He got pissed, went to his car, dropped his gear and came back as a spectator. Oh well. We had a couple of other guys in tan T-shirts on Sunday and it was also brought to their attention as well. If AMS won't crack down on the uniform problem, maybe it's time we police our own.

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#2) with this idea, you might as well take them out of the game all together unless they did strictly LARPing. I say that because unless they are limited to a CQB only environment, you would render them combat ineffective. If you were forced to be combat ineffective for the ENTIRE OP, you wouldn't have fun, and that's what we're all here for.

 

 

#4) This go around, CDF got to see some of the better teams that frequent AMS OPs. I have personally played along side and against most of these guys at one point or another and I can tell you that they all use semi-auto almost exclusively already. Not to mention that there was a lot of engagements at RY2 that had to be semi auto only for everyone anyway. To a good operator, semi-auto isn't a handicap and full auto is a crutch. Everyone acts as if CDF was wall hacking and aimbot-ing at this OP. you have to have it be as fair and even as possible for everyone so that, again, everyone has a good time.

 

#5) This one is rediculous. Coms are not just a inter-squad/platoon aid, but it's a life line to staff and possibly emergency personnel. So, to totally prohibit coms would be crazy, and it would be almost impossible to enforce letting CDF have radios but only use them for staff and emergencies.

 

On the other hand....

 

#1) I think most are on board with this already. CDF should be an X factor. Small enough to balance out the battlefield without making it lop-sided.

 

#3) I somewhat agree with this, as do most. I DO believe CDF needs a uniform but nothing that resembles either factions primary colors. For whatever reason, if I had to take up arms to defend my home, it wouldn't be in my T-shirt and blue jeans. I think Krypek Typhon, black, and tactical grey would be great in easily setting them apart from anyone else. I think that such a uniform requirement should be enforced regardless of faction loyalty weather it be the entire OP or temporary. I also think that all squads should have to match within CDF just as any other faction. It is still MilSim after all.

I've seen many people take pistol, or shotgun into battle and do fine with it, my own teammate spike used his shotgun in broken home and esr19 and put in work. That's his favorite weapon. At ers19 I pretty much used my kriss vector with only 2 mags and still had an amazing time and put in work. The only time I can see this as coming a problem is in a strictly woodland environment. But ry2 would have been perfect for this rule. Spike dont Care if its woodland or cqb, he still uses his shotgun. But I can see where your coming from cuz in some instances having an aeg over a gbb/shotgun is necessary such as in woodland environment. But in cqb it doesnt make 1 bit of difference. Oh ya to add to my rule 2, If it was me id also allow sniper rifles. But with the restriction of what gun u could use, id also make it a lil cheaper for cdf. But I was saying to do a combo of my rules, so in a woodland only place, this rule wouldn't be there, but places like ry2 fg2, blue/grey it would work. And gbb vs aeg the only difference is your mag capacity. My kriss can out shoot some peoples aegs in range.

 

In my experience semi auto to full auto isnt that big of difference, however there are alot of people I know that don't know guns have a semi feature cuz all they know is full auto and spraying and praying. So to some people this rule wouldn't make a big change, however I think it would still effect some gameplay and still be worth it. And this is a rule coming from someone who is always playin cdf and im the support gunner for my team ironically enough.

 

The no comms thing I think is still a good idea, u make a good point as in u can't get to admins as fast. However with the blind man and coreman being yelled, its still effective. Plus with the ams crew abd admins I kno where ever I'm at I could always see 1 of them, so they were always able to be there if I needed them. But having no comms to me is a big part cuz that cuts down communication between teams and we wouldn't have been able to relay between us and be as successful as we were if we didn't have comms.

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I've seen many people take pistol, or shotgun into battle and do fine with it, my own teammate spike used his shotgun in broken home and esr19 and put in work. That's his favorite weapon. At ers19 I pretty much used my kriss vector with only 2 mags and still had an amazing time and put in work. The only time I can see this as coming a problem is in a strictly woodland environment. But ry2 would have been perfect for this rule. Spike dont Care if its woodland or cqb, he still uses his shotgun. But I can see where your coming from cuz in some instances having an aeg over a gbb/shotgun is necessary such as in woodland environment. But in cqb it doesnt make 1 bit of difference. Oh ya to add to my rule 2, If it was me id also allow sniper rifles. But with the restriction of what gun u could use, id also make it a lil cheaper for cdf. But I was saying to do a combo of my rules, so in a woodland only place, this rule wouldn't be there, but places like ry2 fg2, blue/grey it would work. And gbb vs aeg the only difference is your mag capacity. My kriss can out shoot some peoples aegs in range.

 

In my experience semi auto to full auto isnt that big of difference, however there are alot of people I know that don't know guns have a semi feature cuz all they know is full auto and spraying and praying. So to some people this rule wouldn't make a big change, however I think it would still effect some gameplay and still be worth it. And this is a rule coming from someone who is always playin cdf and im the support gunner for my team ironically enough.

 

The no comms thing I think is still a good idea, u make a good point as in u can't get to admins as fast. However with the blind man and coreman being yelled, its still effective. Plus with the ams crew abd admins I kno where ever I'm at I could always see 1 of them, so they were always able to be there if I needed them. But having no comms to me is a big part cuz that cuts down communication between teams and we wouldn't have been able to relay between us and be as successful as we were if we didn't have comms.

To each is own on the weapon preference. My hat is off to you and your team mate for taking on such a handicap and making it work for you. Again though, if i were to defend my home/country i would be grabbing a rifle, not just a pistol and/or shotgun. One thing kind of in the same vein of your idea is maybe a more strict maximum ammo count per player of CDF. This would also encourage more semi auto usage.

 

Coms aren't that big of a deal really. At RY2 we were ordered to keep radio chatter to a minimum and really most communication was just with squad leaders to command finding out what our next mission was. If we didn't have that, we would have been like a bunch of preschoolers on the playground. We communicate by ear mostly anyway as do most once they get on the field and after first contact occurs.

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